Question about the quorum

[Guest John M]

We had a motion at a meeting that required a 75% majority to pass.  this was the 4th motion of 4 total.  At the beginning of the meeting, we established a required quorum of 67 voters, which exceeded the required 75% of the membership base.  After our first motion was passed, members of the meeting began to disappear.  It was an older crowd.  When we got to our fourth motion, we had a total of 46 votes for yes, 8 votes for no and 5 counted abstentions.  Since this vote required a 75% yes vote, (75% of 67 was 50.25), the motion was considered not passing.  However, since the voting total at that point had been reduced to 59 members, (which is still meets the required quorum to vote) should the vote have been considered passing since 75% of 59 is 44.25 or 45 votes needed to pass and 46 were counted for yes?

[Gary Novosielski]

This appears to be an unqualified three-fourths (75%) vote, which means three-fourths of those present and voting.  The number present does not matter as long as a quorum is present, and the number of abstentions does not matter since they are by definition not votes.  The voters, be they Yes or No, are all that matter.

So as long as the number of Yes votes is at least three times the number of No votes, the three-fourths threshold is achieved.  Since there were 8 No votes, it would take 3 × 8 = 24 Yes votes to adopt the motion.  With 46 Yes votes, that's not even close.  

You had 46 votes out of 54 voters, which is more than 85% approval.  But since the chair declared it to have failed, and no timely point of order was raised, it failed.   You can move it again at a future meeting.

Edited November 14, 2023 at 07:04 AM by Gary Novosielski

[Dan Honemann]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:49 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

So as long as the number of Yes votes is at least three times the number of No votes, the three-fourths threshold is achieved.  Since there were 8 No votes, it would take 3 × 8 = 24 Yes votes to adopt the motion.  With 46 Yes votes, that's not even close.

Huh?  With 54 votes cast, won't it take 41 affirmative votes to adopt a motion requiring a three-fourths vote for adoption?

[Richard Brown]

On 11/14/2023 at 5:46 AM, Dan Honemann said:

Huh?  With 54 votes cast, won't it take 41 affirmative votes to adopt a motion requiring a three-fourths vote for adoption?

That’s what my math comes up with.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/14/2023 at 6:46 AM, Dan Honemann said:

Huh?  With 54 votes cast, won't it take 41 affirmative votes to adopt a motion requiring a three-fourths vote for adoption?

Certainly, but that's because in order to reach 54 votes cast, the number of No votes will have necessarily increased to 13. 

With 13 No votes, a vote of 3 ×13 = 39 votes could adopt the motion, so you could afford two more abstentions, bringing the total voters to 52.  But if those two do not abstain, they will have to be Yes votes, making 41.

[Joshua Katz]

On 11/14/2023 at 12:53 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Certainly, but that's because in order to reach 54 votes cast, the number of No votes will have necessarily increased to 13. 

 

What? 

[Atul Kapur]

On 11/14/2023 at 6:46 AM, Dan Honemann said:

Huh?

On 11/14/2023 at 1:28 PM, Joshua Katz said:

What?

It looks like @Gary Novosielski is using the quick calculation method that just compares the Affirmative against the Negative. 

We're more familiar with using it for a 2/3 vote: if there are 8 negative votes, you need at least 2 x 8 = 16 positive votes to adopt a motion requiring a 2/3 vote.

For a motion that requires 75% for adoption, if there are 8 negative votes, you need at least 3 x 8 = 24 affirmative votes to adopt a motion.

So Gary is not answering the question, "How many affirmative votes do you need to achieve 75% if 54 votes are cast?" (41)

He's answering the question, "How many affirmative votes do you need to achieve 75% if 8 negative votes are cast?" (24)

Edited November 14, 2023 at 06:48 PM by Atul Kapur

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:28 PM, Joshua Katz said:

What? 

With 54 votes cast, if the motion barely passes with 41 votes, there will have been 13 negative votes. And with 13 negative votes there must be at least 39 affirmative votes.

But unless we reduce the vote count to 52 by subtracting two abstentions, there still must, in practice be 41 Yes votes.  A defection of one vote would give us a 40-14 vote, and 3 × 14 would require 42 votes. 

@Atul Kapur is correct.  This is an extension of the quick test that a 2/3 vote requires the affirmative to be at least twice the  negative.  For a 3/4 vote, the affirmative must be thrice the negative. In general, for any required fraction n/(n+1), i.e., 4/5, 5/6, 6/7, the affirmative must be n times that of the negative.