Can the Chair act on New Business during their report?

[Guest CraigP]

At a prior meeting our chair took it upon himself to propose a motion on an item listed under new business as part of his regular report.  It was done at the start of the meeting before everyone had arrived, although there was a quorum present.  It seems as if it was done to head off debate later, but that's my own thought.  The chair making the motion during his report and tackling business items out of the listed order both seem like improper actions. Requests to reconsider the topic were subsequently denied. 

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 12/4/2023 at 9:19 AM, Guest CraigP said:

At a prior meeting our chair took it upon himself to propose a motion on an item listed under new business as part of his regular report.  It was done at the start of the meeting before everyone had arrived, although there was a quorum present.  It seems as if it was done to head off debate later, but that's my own thought.  The chair making the motion during his report and tackling business items out of the listed order both seem like improper actions. Requests to reconsider the topic were subsequently denied. 

Do you have a question? 

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:47 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

Do you have a question? 

I see now that you put a question in the title of the topic. The president can give a report that includes recommendations, although it is best practice for another member to move their implementation.

As far as taking up a question before its appointed time, I would want to know how it came to appear under New Business to begin with.

But in any case, once the question has been decided it is too late to raise a point of order about these irregularities. 

[Atul Kapur]

On 12/4/2023 at 9:19 AM, Guest CraigP said:

Requests to reconsider the topic were subsequently denied. 

The wording seems to suggest that it was made as a request to, and denied by, the chair.

The proper procedure is that a motion to Reconsider is made and seconded and, unless it is out of order for some reason, is considered by the assembly and decided by a vote.

[Guest CraigP]

On 12/4/2023 at 2:50 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

I see now that you put a question in the title of the topic. The president can give a report that includes recommendations, although it is best practice for another member to move their implementation.

As far as taking up a question before its appointed time, I would want to know how it came to appear under New Business to begin with.

But in any case, once the question has been decided it is too late to raise a point of order about these irregularities. 

The topic was listed under new business on the agenda, It was a decision that I would have debated against, but I was late and was moved up to first thing on the agenda by the chair which by my reading isn't a permitted action for an agenda item.  A motion to reconsider we denied by the chair without explanation. 

[Joshua Katz]

On 12/5/2023 at 12:51 PM, Guest CraigP said:

A motion to reconsider we denied by the chair without explanation. 

Well that is certainly improper.

[Guest CraigP]

The motions was targeted at me in particular, so yeah kinda sore about it..  But I thought I read restriction on the chair changing the order of business as well. 

[Joshua Katz]

Was there an adopted agenda? If so I agree that taking up an item of business before it appears on the agenda is out of order without a motion to suspend the rules.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 12/5/2023 at 1:22 PM, Guest CraigP said:

The motions was targeted at me in particular, so yeah kinda sore about it..  But I thought I read restriction on the chair changing the order of business as well. 

Well, yes, the chair acting alone has no power to change the orders of the day, nor for that matter the power to deny a motion to Reconsider, without an explanation of what rule would be violated by entertaining it.

[Guest CraigP]

On 12/5/2023 at 1:24 PM, Joshua Katz said:

Was there an adopted agenda? If so I agree that taking up an item of business before it appears on the agenda is out of order without a motion to suspend the rules.

Yes that's what I thought. There is an agenda for every meeting, typically there is no formal adopting of it. 

[Guest CraigP]

On 12/5/2023 at 5:28 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Well, yes, the chair acting alone has no power to change the orders of the day, nor for that matter the power to deny a motion to Reconsider, without an explanation of what rule would be violated by entertaining it.

"We already voted on it" was as much explanation as I got.

[Dan Honemann]

On 12/6/2023 at 8:31 AM, Guest CraigP said:

Yes that's what I thought. There is an agenda for every meeting, typically there is no formal adopting of it. 

If an agenda is not properly adopted, it has no force or effect.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 12/6/2023 at 8:31 AM, Guest CraigP said:

Yes that's what I thought. There is an agenda for every meeting, typically there is no formal adopting of it. 

That changes my answer.

If the "agenda" is not adopted by the assembly, it is then more in the nature of a memorandum of business items to be handled, as an aid to the presiding officer, but it is not binding. Therefore, the presiding officer has more leeway, but still must stay within the proper heading of the Standard Order of Business unless the assembly agrees to Suspend the Rules to take up an item out of its regular order.

The Standard Order of Business comprises the following subdivisions:

     1) Reading and Approval of Minutes
     2) Reports of Officers, Boards, and Standing Committees
     3) Reports of Special (Select or Ad Hoc) Committees
     4) Special Orders
     5) Unfinished Business and General Orders
     6) New Business

In organizations that have adopted RONR as their parliamentary authority, that hold their regular meetings as frequently as quarterly, and have not adopted a special order of business, this series of headings is their prescribed order of business.
[see RONR (12th ed.) 41:5 ff.]
 

 

[Joshua Katz]

On 12/6/2023 at 8:32 AM, Guest CraigP said:

"We already voted on it" was as much explanation as I got.

Your chair clearly does not understand the motion to reconsider. Or pretends not to. The ruling should have been appealed.

[Guest CraigP]

On 12/6/2023 at 9:43 AM, Joshua Katz said:

Your chair clearly does not understand the motion to reconsider. Or pretends not to. The ruling should have been appealed.

We're working on it...  If Reconsider wasn't recognized Appeal would have been equally fruitless, as I was appealing both his motion and decision not to revisit it.  At this point actually mostly the damage is done, but I can see if we can rescind it or nullify it based on the failure to follow the rules.  

[Gary Novosielski]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:10 PM, Guest CraigP said:

If Reconsider wasn't recognized Appeal would have been equally fruitless, as I was appealing both his motion and decision not to revisit it. 

It's only fruitless if you acquiesce to the chair's behavior. 

62:9
Likewise, if the chair ignores an appeal appropriately made and seconded, a member can repeat the appeal and if, despite its being seconded, the chair ignores it again, the member can repeat it a third time and if it is again seconded but still ignored by the chair, the member can immediately, standing in his place, put the appeal to a vote without debate. The question may be put as: “Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?”

[Guest CraigP]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:30 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

It's only fruitless if you acquiesce to the chair's behavior. 

62:9
Likewise, if the chair ignores an appeal appropriately made and seconded, a member can repeat the appeal and if, despite its being seconded, the chair ignores it again, the member can repeat it a third time and if it is again seconded but still ignored by the chair, the member can immediately, standing in his place, put the appeal to a vote without debate. The question may be put as: “Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?”

I wasn't that deep into the rules of order yet!   Although had I done it I think I would just have annoyed enough members they wouldn't vote for the appeal.  I just took over the chair so I am making a point to learn.. This prior motion will smack into new events again if it stays in effect, so I'm trying to amend, rescind or nullify, the board doesn't share my enthusiasm and just figures we'll stop enforcing it.  They're not wrong... but also it's not right...

[Guest CraigP]

On 12/6/2023 at 9:40 AM, Gary Novosielski said:

That changes my answer.

If the "agenda" is not adopted by the assembly, it is then more in the nature of a memorandum of business items to be handled, as an aid to the presiding officer, but it is not binding. Therefore, the presiding officer has more leeway, but still must stay within the proper heading of the Standard Order of Business unless the assembly agrees to Suspend the Rules to take up an item out of its regular order.

The Standard Order of Business comprises the following subdivisions:

     1) Reading and Approval of Minutes
     2) Reports of Officers, Boards, and Standing Committees
     3) Reports of Special (Select or Ad Hoc) Committees
     4) Special Orders
     5) Unfinished Business and General Orders
     6) New Business

In organizations that have adopted RONR as their parliamentary authority, that hold their regular meetings as frequently as quarterly, and have not adopted a special order of business, this series of headings is their prescribed order of business.
[see RONR (12th ed.) 41:5 ff.]
 

 

Gary sorry just went far enough up to read this, so does it really change your answer if our agenda mirrors the standard order of business? It would be the same effect, an improper action. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 12/6/2023 at 4:02 PM, Guest CraigP said:

Gary sorry just went far enough up to read this, so does it really change your answer if our agenda mirrors the standard order of business? It would be the same effect, an improper action. 

It depends (Doesn't it always?).

The Standard Order (or, for that matter, a proper agenda) would not have any items listed under New Business in the first place.  If this is an item the President wants to handle early in the meeting it's easy enough to include it under Reports of Officers, viz. of the President.  As Shmuel points out, officers normally would not move their own recommendations, but rather have a member do it. 

Anyway, at this point there's nothing to be done except to learn for next time.