Floor Parliamentarians

[Wright Stuff]

Back in August, there was a thread in which the subject of a floor parliamentarian was raised. The topic is not covered in RONR. So, how could members of a body engage the services of a floor parliamentarian if the organization does not allow guests at its meetings (even though the chair is apparently entitled to a parliamentarian?) I think FPS are sorely needed, but I can see how leadership could block them. 

[Dan Honemann]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:34 AM, Wright Stuff said:

Back in August, there was a thread in which the subject of a floor parliamentarian was raised. The topic is not covered in RONR. So, how could members of a body engage the services of a floor parliamentarian if the organization does not allow guests at its meetings (even though the chair is apparently entitled to a parliamentarian?) I think FPS are sorely needed, but I can see how leadership could block them. 

Why do you say that the organization does not allow guests at its meetings?  Nothing in RONR prevents the presence of guests at meetings. If a question about it arises, the assembly itself resolves it by majority vote.

[Wright Stuff]

On 1/18/2024 at 6:03 AM, Dan Honemann said:

Why do you say that the organization does not allow guests at its meetings?  Nothing in RONR prevents the presence of guests at meetings. If a question about it arises, the assembly itself resolves it by majority vote.

In this case, the organization voted to not allow guests to attend their Executive Committee meetings. However, the chair has a parliamentarian at each meeting. Is that parliamentarian a guest?

The question is whether there is any entitlement for a hall parliamentarian to attend except as a guest. Since a hall parliamentarian is not a part of RONR, it seems to me that if guests are not allowed to attend, the hall parliamentarian is not allowed to attend and render services. If guests are allowed to attend, he presumably could be required to sit in the guest section, away from and unable to communicate with a member needing the assistance.

I love the idea of a hall parliamentarian and have been asked by members to serve in that capacity before, but I don’t see any privilege attaching to the position that ensures the hall parliamentarian will be allowed to attend or participate.

[Dan Honemann]

On 1/18/2024 at 7:30 AM, Wright Stuff said:

In this case, the organization voted to not allow guests to attend their Executive Committee meetings. However, the chair has a parliamentarian at each meeting. Is that parliamentarian a guest?

I'm afraid you are going to have to look at exactly what your bylaws and other rules adopted by your organization say concerning the appointment and services of a parliamentarian and the presence of guests at meetings for answers to your questions.

[Wright Stuff]

On 1/18/2024 at 8:21 AM, Dan Honemann said:

I'm afraid you are going to have to look at exactly what your bylaws and other rules adopted by your organization say concerning the appointment and services of a parliamentarian and the presence of guests at meetings for answers to your questions.

I understand what you're saying. @Atul Kapur, as I recall, first mentioned floor parliamentarians, but as I'm asking, there is no basis for one in RONR meaning that, while they are a good idea, they have no official basis for them. 

[Josh Martin]

On 1/17/2024 at 11:34 PM, Wright Stuff said:

So, how could members of a body engage the services of a floor parliamentarian if the organization does not allow guests at its meetings (even though the chair is apparently entitled to a parliamentarian?)

The assembly itself controls its hall. If the assembly refuses entry to the nonmember, then the members in question will need to communicate with their floor parliamentarian through other means, such as texting, or prepping ahead of time.

I would also clarify that the chair is not, in fact, "entitled" to a parliamentarian. The same rules apply to the parliamentarian serving the presiding officer as to any other guests. All persons who are not members have no right to attend meetings, and the assembly is free to permit (or not permit) such persons at its meetings.

On 1/17/2024 at 11:34 PM, Wright Stuff said:

I think FPS are sorely needed, but I can see how leadership could block them. 

"Leadership" can't block anything in this regard. The assembly itself controls its hall, not "leadership," unless your rules provide otherwise.

So far as RONR is concerned, it is at the discretion of the assembly whether to permit guests at its meetings.

On 1/18/2024 at 6:30 AM, Wright Stuff said:

In this case, the organization voted to not allow guests to attend their Executive Committee meetings.

Please clarify the following:

• When you say "the organization," what do you mean by this? Did some higher-level body vote to prohibit guests from attending Executive Committee meetings?
• What is the exact wording of the rule adopted in this matter?

On 1/18/2024 at 6:30 AM, Wright Stuff said:

The question is whether there is any entitlement for a hall parliamentarian to attend except as a guest.

There is not.

On 1/18/2024 at 6:30 AM, Wright Stuff said:

Since a hall parliamentarian is not a part of RONR, it seems to me that if guests are not allowed to attend, the hall parliamentarian is not allowed to attend and render services.

I think this is all correct, however, I would clarify that an assembly's policy in regard to guests does not need to be "all or nothing." An assembly is free to permit some guests to attend and not others.

On 1/18/2024 at 6:30 AM, Wright Stuff said:

If guests are allowed to attend, he presumably could be required to sit in the guest section, away from and unable to communicate with a member needing the assistance.

Certainly it is the case that seating arrangements are at the assembly's discretion in any event.

On 1/18/2024 at 6:30 AM, Wright Stuff said:

I love the idea of a hall parliamentarian and have been asked by members to serve in that capacity before, but I don’t see any privilege attaching to the position that ensures the hall parliamentarian will be allowed to attend or participate...

I understand what you're saying. @Atul Kapur, as I recall, first mentioned floor parliamentarians, but as I'm asking, there is no basis for one in RONR meaning that, while they are a good idea, they have no official basis for them. 

This is all quite correct.

Edited January 18, 2024 at 02:33 PM by Josh Martin

[Wright Stuff]

On 1/18/2024 at 9:33 AM, Josh Martin said:

"Leadership" can't block anything in this regard. The assembly itself controls its hall, not "leadership," unless your rules provide otherwise.

The rules do not provide otherwise. I should have prefaced my questions by saying that we are dealing with a number of counties that are intentionally or otherwise failing to follow RONR even though it is designated as the parliamentary authority in their bylaws. "Leadership" is blocking a number of things because the assembly is not educated in RONR. (I understand that's the assembly's fault, but, in a perfect world, leadership would follow the rules without being "forced" to do so.) Leadership can and does unilaterally make improper decisions all the time; It just can't do so and comply with RONR. The assemblies need to learn to control its leadership. 

On 1/18/2024 at 9:33 AM, Josh Martin said:

• When you say "the organization," what do you mean by this? Did some higher-level body vote to prohibit guests from attending Executive Committee meetings?
• What is the exact wording of the rule adopted in this matter?

No, the body did not object when the chair unilaterally instituted the no visitors policy. To my knowledge, the policy was not even reduced to writing. What is missing from the discussion is that the body has few if any people who understand RONR well enough to keep its leadership in check which is why I started the discussion in the first place about floor parliamentarians. There are members of the body who want things to run correctly, but they don't want it badly enough they they are going to learn RONR to the necessary degree. It's an all volunteer organization.

In fact, there was a discussion in the group recently that RONR has become so complex and, to many, convoluted that they are considering adopting a different parliamentary authority. Our state has a simplified procedure manual for municipalities that is being recommended by a member who was previously a mayor of a small community. I doubt they will be able to dislodge RONR, which is why I'm trying to learn and help. They have allowed things to get way out of hand, and I don't know if or how it can be fixed.

The issue of the meeting being closed to visitors is not the question, though. The question is whether there is any parliamentary basis for allowing floor parliamentarians, and it seems to me that the answer is now clear that it's up to the body whether to embrace or support the idea of floor parliamentarians. Maybe that's a good idea for proposing a special rule or order allowing them. 

On 1/18/2024 at 9:33 AM, Josh Martin said:

I would also clarify that the chair is not, in fact, "entitled" to a parliamentarian. The same rules apply to the parliamentarian serving the presiding officer as to any other guests. All persons who are not members have no right to attend meetings, and the assembly is free to permit (or not permit) such persons at its meetings.

The presiding chair, who is also the actual chair in this instance, is "entitled" to have a parliamentarian because it is provided for in the bylaws. There's no argument there. 

[Josh Martin]

On 1/18/2024 at 10:56 AM, Wright Stuff said:

The assemblies need to learn to control its leadership. 

I agree.

On 1/18/2024 at 10:56 AM, Wright Stuff said:

No, the body did not object when the chair unilaterally instituted the no visitors policy. To my knowledge, the policy was not even reduced to writing.

Based upon these additional facts, I am not certain that "the organization voted to not allow guests to attend their Executive Committee meetings" is, in fact, an accurate description of what occurred. It seems to me that no "policy" on this matter actually exists, and this is, at best, a custom.

As a result, I am inclined to think that based upon the available facts, it remains the case that the rules in RONR are controlling, and it is at the Executive Committee's discretion what guests (if any) shall be permitted to attend its meetings.

On 1/18/2024 at 10:56 AM, Wright Stuff said:

The question is whether there is any parliamentary basis for allowing floor parliamentarians, and it seems to me that the answer is now clear that it's up to the body whether to embrace or support the idea of floor parliamentarians.

I agree.

On 1/18/2024 at 10:56 AM, Wright Stuff said:

Maybe that's a good idea for proposing a special rule or order allowing them. 

I would suggest that this would actually be in the nature of a standing rule. But yes, the organization is certainly free to adopt a rule on this matter if it wishes.

On 1/18/2024 at 10:56 AM, Wright Stuff said:

The presiding chair, who is also the actual chair in this instance, is "entitled" to have a parliamentarian because it is provided for in the bylaws. There's no argument there. 

Thank you for that clarification. But I am not certain this rule overrides the assembly's right to control its hall. Whether the position of parliamentarian is provided for in the bylaws or not, members have a right to attend meetings, and all persons who are not members have no such right. So unless the parliamentarian happens to be a member, it remains my view that the parliamentarian may attend meetings only at the assembly's discretion.

Certainly, I would imagine that the assembly would generally want the parliamentarian to be present, but conceivably the assembly might decide otherwise in a particular instance, such as for an executive session.

Edited January 18, 2024 at 05:06 PM by Josh Martin

[Atul Kapur]

A group of members may still benefit from the services of a floor parliamentarian, even if that individual is not allowed entry at the meeting itself.

I have advised a client in such a situation, by reviewing the agenda and preparing her for what would happen (reviewing and rehearsing the steps that she should take and when) in order to protect her rights and achieve her objectives. 

Others have been outside the meeting room but nearby and, as mentioned above, communicated in realtime by texting, etc.

The group may hire a parliamentarian simply to teach them about parliamentary procedure so that they are more comfortable and confident in the meeting.

[Wright Stuff]

Thanks @Dan Honemann, @Josh Martin, and @Atul Kapur for the discussion. While I don't always ask my questions correctly, I hope I'm getting closer. I really like the idea of Floor Parliamentarians for the reasons stated. 

[J. J.]

On 1/18/2024 at 12:39 PM, Atul Kapur said:

A group of members may still benefit from the services of a floor parliamentarian, even if that individual is not allowed entry at the meeting itself.

I have advised a client in such a situation, by reviewing the agenda and preparing her for what would happen (reviewing and rehearsing the steps that she should take and when) in order to protect her rights and achieve her objectives. 

Others have been outside the meeting room but nearby and, as mentioned above, communicated in realtime by texting, etc.

The group may hire a parliamentarian simply to teach them about parliamentary procedure so that they are more comfortable and confident in the meeting.

It is also possible to be in contact with the floor parliamentarian through electronic means, unless the assembly bans the use of electronic devices on the floor.

[Atul Kapur]

On 1/19/2024 at 9:11 AM, J. J. said:

It is also possible to be in contact with the floor parliamentarian through electronic means, unless the assembly bans the use of electronic devices on the floor.

What did you think "etc" meant other than "ElecTroniC"? 😉

On 1/18/2024 at 12:39 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Others have been outside the meeting room but nearby and, as mentioned above, communicated in realtime by texting, etc.

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/19/2024 at 10:37 AM, Atul Kapur said:

Others have been outside the meeting room but nearby and, as mentioned above, communicated in realtime by texting, etc.

So, if etc means ElecTroniC, the texting must be the old fashioned manual texting, which was very noisy and generated so much dust.