Kicked out of a Full County Board Meeting?

[Sandy Sunshine Girl]

Our Sheriff has lately been throwing his weight around. As of late, he stood before the Full County Board yelling and threatened to throw any Board member out of the building at his discretion should things get heated. I have been an elected Board member for a little over a year now and learning the ropes. What comes to mind first is, "at his discretion?" When (according to his "discretion") is one crossing the line to be escorted out of the building?

He is upset because there have been some heated discussions lately. But nothing that got out of hand. Second, his job description is to uphold the Laws of the land. People have a first Amendment Right to speak albeit loudly. I can see if one were to get violent. That would justify arresting and escorting an individual out of the building.

Does a Sheriff have the right to force an elected County Board member, according to Robert's Rules of Order, out of a building should a conversation get heated? He says he does. If not, what Statute can one stand on to show otherwise?

[Gary Novosielski]

The answer to this question will not be found within RONR, which does not deal with statutes.

Consult a lawyer.

[Sandy Sunshine Girl]

Thank you, Gary, for replying. I meant to ask if there is something in Robert's Rules of Order that can answer my inquiry?

[Joshua Katz]

There is nothing in RONR, specifically, authorizing a sheriff to remove board members from their own meeting. But that doesn't mean he has no such powers (although I suspect he usually doesn't), just that they would have to come from somewhere else. So nothing in RONR will exhaust your inquiry.

[Josh Martin]

On 6/21/2024 at 6:00 PM, Sandy Sunshine Girl said:

Our Sheriff has lately been throwing his weight around. As of late, he stood before the Full County Board yelling and threatened to throw any Board member out of the building at his discretion should things get heated. I have been an elected Board member for a little over a year now and learning the ropes. What comes to mind first is, "at his discretion?" When (according to his "discretion") is one crossing the line to be escorted out of the building?

He is upset because there have been some heated discussions lately. But nothing that got out of hand. Second, his job description is to uphold the Laws of the land. People have a first Amendment Right to speak albeit loudly. I can see if one were to get violent. That would justify arresting and escorting an individual out of the building.

Does a Sheriff have the right to force an elected County Board member, according to Robert's Rules of Order, out of a building should a conversation get heated? He says he does. If not, what Statute can one stand on to show otherwise?

On 6/21/2024 at 7:22 PM, Sandy Sunshine Girl said:

Thank you, Gary, for replying. I meant to ask if there is something in Robert's Rules of Order that can answer my inquiry?

So far as RONR is concerned, only the board itself has the authority to order a board member to be removed from the meeting, and even then, only through the appropriate disciplinary procedures. See RONR (12th ed.) 61:6-18 for more information concerning those procedures.

Given the circumstances, however, I concur with my colleagues that this is ultimately a legal question, not a parliamentary one. I would advise the board to consult its attorneys in this matter.

Edited June 22, 2024 at 02:25 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 6/21/2024 at 8:22 PM, Sandy Sunshine Girl said:

Thank you, Gary, for replying. I meant to ask if there is something in Robert's Rules of Order that can answer my inquiry?

That's essentially the question I answered.  No, there isn't.

[Richard Brown]

This is more of a legal question than a parliamentary one. As Mr. Martin explained, RONR only provides for a member to be ordered removed from the meeting by a vote of the assembly itself. It does not address the issue of a member being removed or even arrested by law enforcement officers for Violations of law, such as disorderly conduct. A person is not immune from arrest just because he or she is in a meeting. I have actually seen videos posted on social media of members being physically removed from meetings by law enforcement because of their conduct during the meeting.

Edited June 22, 2024 at 03:23 PM by Richard Brown
Typographical corrections

[Gary Novosielski]

This is as close as you're going to get:

61:20 If a person—whether a member of the assembly or not— refuses to obey the order of proper authority to leave the hall during a meeting, the chair should take necessary measures to see that the order is enforced, but should be guided by a judicious appraisal of the situation. The chair can appoint a committee to escort the offender to the door, or the sergeant at-arms—if there is one—can be asked to do this. If those who are assigned that task are unable to persuade the offender to leave, it is usually preferable that he be removed by police— who may, however, be reluctant to intervene unless representatives of the organization are prepared to press charges.

But I doubt this applies to your situation.  An order of proper authority in this rule refers to the assembly voting to remove someone from the room.  If I understand correctly, the Sheriff is not a member of the County Board, but comes to the meeting and threatens to remove board members during a board meeting.  That is not what 61:20 is referring to, and there's nothing in RONR that is on point regarding your situation.

I think you're going to need legal advice, not parliamentary advice.

[Sandy Sunshine Girl]

Thank you, Josh Martin. When I return home tonight I will be getting my Robert's Rules of Order book out and looking that up!

Richard Brown: You have seen videos of members being physically removed from meetings by law enforcement because of their conduct during the meeting? That is 100% a Lawsuit against them. I know of two gentleman who were threatened to be removed and they refused to leave. The other members physically removed them and the two men successfully sued and won!

Thank you Gary, for your continued replies. I am grateful to you all for your feedback!

[Richard Brown]

On 6/23/2024 at 2:28 PM, Sandy Sunshine Girl said:

That is 100% a Lawsuit against them

No, I disagree. That is not necessarily true.  You obviously don’t know the facts of those cases.  Just because you are a member of a body that is meeting does not mean that everything you say and do in the meeting is immune from arrest. As I recall from one of those cases, a. member of a public body was removed from the meeting  by law enforcement officers and was actually placed under arrest for his conduct. The member was convicted and the conviction and the actions of the law enforcement officers were upheld on appeal.

I personally thought the police officers overreacted in at least one of those cases and should have waited for the body itself to vote to have the member removed, but they did not wait for that. I don’t remember what the exact charges were, but it had to do with the behavior of the member at the meeting. He was unquestionably being disruptive and disrupting the meeting. It was a meeting of a public body which was open to the public.  I’m thinking it was a school board, but I’m not sure.  

One of those cases was the topic of a thread in this forum and quite a few of our members are probably familiar with it. Perhaps someone remembers the details better than I do or can a link to the thread.

Edited to add: here is a link to the discussion in this forum that I referred to. Contained within the discussion are other links to more information.  https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/40321-roberts-in-us-court-of-appeals-decision/

Edited June 23, 2024 at 08:17 PM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph and link

[Josh Martin]

On 6/23/2024 at 2:28 PM, Sandy Sunshine Girl said:

Richard Brown: You have seen videos of members being physically removed from meetings by law enforcement because of their conduct during the meeting? That is 100% a Lawsuit against them. I know of two gentleman who were threatened to be removed and they refused to leave. The other members physically removed them and the two men successfully sued and won!

I express no view on this, but I would again advise the board (and potentially also individual board members) consult attorneys regarding these matters.

[Joshua Katz]

On 6/23/2024 at 1:04 PM, Richard Brown said:

No, I disagree. That is not necessarily true.

I agree with Mr. Brown. Even when police behave unreasonably, there are many hurdles to a successful lawsuit against them.