Can a motion carry if the rules of order are not followed ?

[twolifter]

Forgive me I am pretty new to the Roberts Rules of Order. I did find what appears to be the answer to part of my question in the FAQ's but that answer has given me a second question.

At our last meeting I was given the floor and to silence me from speaking further on the topic, a motion to vote was purposed and seconded by two other individuals who had not been given the floor. (while i still had the floor)

Because I was the first to question the topic and I was not allowed to finish the vote was carried. (because our club is hardly awake during the business meetings and other than the board of directors nobody really knows what is going on. This is the reason I left the club 3 years ago, and it manifested itself again the first meeting after I paid my dues to re-join under what is mostly "new club officers".

Should I, or could I have done something to stop the vote ? And does the vote count ? Because the issue was about spending money, if the vote does NOT count, what happens if the money is already spent by the time I try to correct the issue. And is there a time limit on how long I have to address the issue ?

below is what I BELIEVE covers my question, i may be wrong in that assumption. Below that I will include what our constitution/by-laws say about the rules of order.

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Question 11:

Must debate on a motion stop immediately as soon as any member calls the question?

Answer:

It is a fairly common misconception that, after debate has continued for some time, if any member shouts out "Question!" or "I call the question!", debate must immediately cease and the chair must put the pending question to a vote. This is simply not the case. Any member who wishes to force an end to debate must first obtain the floor by being duly recognized to speak by the chair, and must then move the Previous Question. Such a motion must be seconded, and then adopted by a two-thirds vote, or by unanimous consent. It is not in order to interrupt a speaker with cries of "Question" or "Call the Question," and even if no one is speaking, it is still necessary to seek recognition. [RONR (10th ed.), p. 193-94; see also p 35-37 of RONR In Brief.]

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Article XIII - Parliamentary Procedure

Section 1 - Parliamentary procedure for conducting all business of the

Dallas Xxxx Club shall be in accordance with the most current version of

Roberts Rules of Order.

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Other than the name of the club being X'd out, this is the entire section of our by-laws about procedure.

I should mention that nothing our club does follows these rules, but we do like to present things semi-formally in the Business portion of our meetings.

[Gary c Tesser]

O twolifter, what is your question? I chafe (like Seth Green when the full moon is out in Buffy) to reply to your second paragraph, which suggests that some kind of silencing was legitimate -- at the time that you had the floor -- but you do not ask it. I think you probably had a legitimate case, then. (But it's gone now, because of the rules about timeliness in parliamentary law.)

The thing about the quoted FAQ, and your bylaws, is that both of them pretty much apply while things are going on, and they cannot be applied later on.

I'll bet that the fact that this was about money does not matter, as far as the procedure that was followed is concerned. And the time limit, like about maybe rescinding the decision to spend money, is mostly about whether the decision can be reversed. ( For example, once you have painted the clubhouse red, you cannot rescind the decision to paint the clubhouse. But once you have bought the dog, can you vote to return the dog? Hmm.)

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Should I, or could I have done something to stop the vote?

And does the vote count?

Because the issue was about spending money, if the vote does NOT count, what happens if the money is already spent by the time I try to correct the issue.

And is there a time limit on how long I have to address the issue ?

Q. "Should I or could I have done something to stop the vote?"

A. Tool #1 is a timely POINT OF ORDER.

Did you raise a point of order?

Q. "And does the vote count?"

A. Yes. You have not cited anything which would suggest otherwise.

[Tim Wynn]

Forgive me I am pretty new to the Roberts Rules of Order.

Forgiven. Move on.

At our last meeting I was given the floor and to silence me from speaking further on the topic, a motion to vote was purposed and seconded by two other individuals who had not been given the floor. (while i still had the floor)

This was not in order. A motion to end debate and go directly to a vote is not in order when another has the floor, and it requires a two-thirds vote. See RONR(10th ed.), p. 191, l. 30; also p. 192, l. 24.

At the time, you could have raised a point of order, but now it's too late. See RONR(10th ed.), p. 240

The vote stands.

[twolifter]

O twolifter, what is your question? I chafe (like Seth Green when the full moon is out in Buffy) to reply to your second paragraph, which suggests that some kind of silencing was legitimate -- at the time that you had the floor -- but you do not ask it. I think you probably had a legitimate case, then. (But it's gone now, because of the rules about timeliness in parliamentary law.)

The thing about the quoted FAQ, and your bylaws, is that both of them pretty much apply while things are going on, and they cannot be applied later on.

I'll bet that the fact that this was about money does not matter, as far as the procedure that was followed is concerned. And the time limit, like about maybe rescinding the decision to spend money, is mostly about whether the decision can be reversed. ( For example, once you have painted the clubhouse red, you cannot rescind the decision to paint the clubhouse. But once you have bought the dog, can you vote to return the dog? Hmm.)

Thanks Gary,

You have no idea how close you are in the example to paint the club house red (but that is not the matter at hand) I was not really asking if the clubhouse could be 'un'painted, I was wondering if it is okay for club funds to be used to order paint. It seems I was unprepared to demand that but because this is a common problem. In the future should one ask the S.O.A. for assistance or should you simply remind the chair that the person making the motion to vote does not have the floor? or ???

I am not so concerned about the decision that was voted for but, rather I would like to prevent out of order motion makers in the future from doing the "scooby dance" (Buffy reference) when they ram-rod a vote thru. Particularly because there are 4 votes at our next meeting that involve changing our constitution. One of which is to add a board member who will serve for life. Another is to make a change that would put a class system in place to have second class members. Another would authorize someone other than, and in addition to the treasurer, to spend money, and the last would be to raise the amount of money that can be spent with out club approval. I may be crazy but when put all these things together they seem like they are taking the club in an entirely different direction. These items are all worded with touchy feely "wouldn't this be better" type language but the language of the actual amendments has yet to be seen by any of the membership to examine.

I guess this leads to the question:

IF someone is speaking in the future, and someone calls for a vote before they are finished speaking what course of action should be taken ?

And a bonus question - Do the rules of order require up/down answers ? or can a list of options be given by the board members For example could the club vote to:

A) Have meetings at location A

B Have meeting at location B

C) Keep looking for another location for the meeting to give the club a better choice.

If that is the way the officers where to write it up, or do all votes require a yes or answer? and if it fails they have the opportunity change it and try again.

This also leads to the question that we typically have a problem of often times in voting the alternative is not given until the people have either voted up or down. For example:

A) Does the club want to buy cheep, thin toilet paper.

Then when people vote "no" the other option might be

B Should we keep using sandpaper instead.

However, If the first question was voted as YES then the "B" option might change to something more pleasant, so the record reads that the club voted down good T.P. and that is was the club who chose substandard T.P. because the person calling for the vote can judge where the voting body is leaning.

My apologies to the moderators for bringing so many topics to this thread.

[twolifter]

Forgiven. Move on.

This was not in order. A motion to end debate and go directly to a vote is not in order when another has the floor, and it requires a two-thirds vote. See RONR(10th ed.), p. 191, l. 30; also p. 192, l. 24.

At the time, you could have raised a point of order, but now it's too late. See RONR(10th ed.), p. 240

The vote stands.

Thank you.

[Tim Wynn]

IF someone is speaking in the future, and someone calls for a vote before they are finished speaking what course of action should be taken ?

First, your chair should know the rules. You might want to address that ahead of time. You could have an informal discussion one on one with the chair, outside a meeting, to go over the proper procedure in such a case. Have your copy of RONR and references ready.

If the first option isn't attainable, you could ask the question in a meeting. It's called a parliamentary inquiry(p. 280-282), and it allows a member to ask the chair for an opinion on procedure, such as, "Is it true that a member speaking in debate cannot be interrupted by a member moving the Previous Question(p. 189)?"

Most importantly, if it happens, rise and address the chair, "Mr. President, I rise to a point of order(p. 240)." Wait for him to ask you to state your point. If it looks like he doesn't know to do that, just go ahead and state it, "A motion to bring the assembly to an immediate vote is not in order when another has the floor." See Previous Question (p. 189).

If the chair rules against you, appeal from the decision(p. 247). This requires a second, and it turns the decision over to the assembly, requiring a majority to overturn the chair's ruling.

Make sure that, ahead of time, you thoroughly brief as many members as you can on your plans. If you have the numbers on your side, and if those numbers are well informed, you stand a good chance of success.

[Tim Wynn]

Thank you.

You're welcome.

[Matt Schafer]

twolifter, you may get a lot of use out of a book titled Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief. It's an explanation of the basics for meetings using Robert's Rules of Order, written for people who have little experience. You can read the whole thing in about two hours. The useful parts for people who are not officers or the chairman will take even less time.

So find a bookstore that has the book RONR In Brief. You'll have a good feeling for how to do things in a meeting and how to keep the chairman on track.

[Josh Martin]

Should I, or could I have done something to stop the vote ?

You should have raised a Point of Order that the person making the motion does not have the floor.

And does the vote count ?

Yes.

Because the issue was about spending money, if the vote does NOT count, what happens if the money is already spent by the time I try to correct the issue. And is there a time limit on how long I have to address the issue ?

The vote does count, but if you wish, you may attempt to rescind the motion before the money is spent. The time limit for that is however long it takes your treasurer to spend the money.

In the future should one ask the S.O.A. for assistance or should you simply remind the chair that the person making the motion to vote does not have the floor? or ??? ...

IF someone is speaking in the future, and someone calls for a vote before they are finished speaking what course of action should be taken ?

You should raise a Point of Order that the person making the motion does not have the floor.

And a bonus question - Do the rules of order require up/down answers?

Generally speaking, yes. There are some instances in which simple variables (colors, names, amounts of money, etc.) can have multiple alternatives pending by a procedure known as "filling blanks." It is not appropriate, however, for fully independent main motions to be pending as alternative choices. Rather, a single motion should be proposed, which may be perfected by the assembly through amendments.

[Guest Nancy N.]

And let it be clear that not just Twolifter, but anyone -- for that matter, EVERYONE -- should raise such a point of order. The interruption is not merely an offense against Twolifter individually -- it's an offense against the organization itself, as an assault on its fair, decorous proceedings.

(My 2-cents. I think I must have spend at least a dollar this way by now tonight.)

[twolifter]

Thanks again to everyone !

The practice was not evident in our last vote (since this thread was started). And I made it known it won't be any longer if I can help it.

[Guest Cathy Walsh]

You should have raised a Point of Order that the person making the motion does not have the floor.

Yes.

The vote does count, but if you wish, you may attempt to rescind the motion before the money is spent. The time limit for that is however long it takes your treasurer to spend the money.

You should raise a Point of Order that the person making the motion does not have the floor.

Generally speaking, yes. There are some instances in which simple variables (colors, names, amounts of money, etc.) can have multiple alternatives pending by a procedure known as "filling blanks." It is not appropriate, however, for fully independent main motions to be pending as alternative choices. Rather, a single motion should be proposed, which may be perfected by the assembly through amendments.

[Guest cathy walsh]

Hi Josh and others,

I am in a situation where a main motion with several different alternatives has passed as a proposal for the assembly to consider. I believe it should have been ruled out of order (because of the multiple alternatives), but, now, I think it is too late. Notice of the assembly meeting and the motion have been mailed, per the bylaws. The assembly meeting to vote on the motion is tomorrow. Can someone move to divide the question so that the three separate alternatives are each considered separate as main motions, debated and voted on? Here are the specifics: The motion that will be put before the assembly aks "that there be an up and down vote on a [new construction] OR a limited renovation project OR the establishment of a general capital campaign [purpose of capital campaign not listed in the motion--presumably the assembly would decide later how the money is to be used--construction or renovation]". Although, it is not a typical division of the question, can someone move to divide the question so that each part is debated and voted on independently? For example: 1) First, there would be a vote on the new construction (which requires 2/3 per the bylaws). 2) If that fails, then there would be a vote on the renovation (which requires a majority). 3) If that fails, there would be a vote on the establishment of a capital campaign fund, the uses of which are to be determined later? Or is there a better way to handle? I think that ruling the motion out of order now would be a disaster but I want to find a way to handle appropriately. My concern is voting on the existing motion has so many alternatives that no one knows what has been decided. Thanks very much!

[hmtcastle]

Or is there a better way to handle?

See responses to your separately posted topic (and thanks for posting it separately!).

[Guest jz]

move to table the motion until a special committee can look over all the options that best serve your needs. then the committee can come forth with there own ideas which the body can pass or not

[hmtcastle]

move to table the motion until a special committee can look over all the options that best serve your needs. then the committee can come forth with there own ideas which the body can pass or not

Laying the motion on the table is inappropriate in this instance.

[Josh Martin]

move to table the motion until a special committee can look over all the options that best serve your needs. then the committee can come forth with there own ideas which the body can pass or not

If the intent is to refer the matter to a special committee the appropriate motion is the motion to Commit or Refer, not the motion to Lay on the Table.