What happens if draft minutes are not approved

[gregory]

At our last Union meeting of the Phoenix domicile the members attempted to correct

the draft minutes to include a few motions that were made and seconded at the previous meeting and were due to be voted on at the current meeting. At the current meeting the Chair claimed the motions were determined to be out of order after they were made but he could not or would not state why the were out of order but regardless, they were also NOT on the agenda to be voted on at the current meeting.

The members present voted over whelming to NOT approve the minutes as presented.

Question is, when minutes are not approved exactly what is the consequence of the

non approval?

[Robert B Fish]

The ogranization has an obligation to approve minutes of what happened at the last meeting.

The chairman should handle the situation by having the minutes read, process additions or correction (if any), and then declare the minutes to have been approved as corrected.

The situation you describe frequently arises when the secretary put too much information in the minutes about what was said that the meeting. The minutes should contain a record of what was done and not what was said by the members.

Approving or not approving the minutes has no effect on what was done at the meeting. You cannot rewrite history. The motions you passed remain in effect while your chairman sorts out the mess he created.

-Bob

[Tim Wynn]

At our last Union meeting of the Phoenix domicile the members attempted to correct

the draft minutes to include a few motions that were made and seconded at the previous meeting and were due to be voted on at the current meeting. At the current meeting the Chair claimed the motions were determined to be out of order after they were made but he could not or would not state why the were out of order but regardless, they were also NOT on the agenda to be voted on at the current meeting.

The members present voted over whelming to NOT approve the minutes as presented.

Question is, when minutes are not approved exactly what is the consequence of the

non approval?

Here's the process.

1. The minutes are read.

2. The chair asks for corrections to the minutes.

3. Members offer corrections (if any); and if there is no objection, the correction is made. If there is an objection, the correction is put to a vote, and the majority decides.

4. The chair declares the minutes approved, when there are no (further) corrections.

See RONR(10th ed.), p. 343, l. 10-33.

[alanh49]

Even if certain main motions were out of order shouldn't they be still included in the minutes?

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Even if certain main motions were out of order shouldn't they be still included in the minutes?

Unclear as to timing.

Q. Was the motion _____:

(a.) ruled on by the chair as being out of order, inside that meeting, at the time the motion was moved?

(b.) deemed out-of-order after the fact, like post-adjournment?

(We get questions all the time, complaining that X was deemed to be out-of-order weeks after adoption. This, as you know, is a Bozo no-no.)

[alanh49]

Unclear as to timing.

Q. Was the motion _____:

(a.) ruled on by the chair as being out of order, inside that meeting, at the time the motion was moved?

(b.) deemed out-of-order after the fact, like post-adjournment?

(We get questions all the time, complaining that X was deemed to be out-of-order weeks after adoption. This, as you know, is a Bozo no-no.)

If the chair ruled that a main motion was out of order when it was moved should not the minutes say something like a motion by Mr H [text of motion] was ruled out of order by the chair because [the chair's reason for ruling it out of order]

[gregory]

You might remember, in a previous question posted here, we discussed the format

my Union uses for membership meetings (which I know is part of the problem)

We have one meeting. Each meeting consist of 8 sessions, one in each domicile. Each

domicile session has different members attending that live in that base. But each

domicile session follows the same agenda. Except when new business comes up. At

that time if members want to make a motion, great, it just can't be voted on until

the next round of sessions (I'd love to change that)

This format allows the Chair to do nothing when the motion is made and seconded,

yet he then goes and rules the motion out of order in between meetings. (yes,

I know this is also a violation) but it is what he does. He claims, I'm no

Lawyer, I don't know federal law, therefore I consult the Union attorney about the

motion after the meeting and because the motion violates federal law, it's out

of order. Yet when asked whick law, he says he'll refer the Union attorney to you,

who of course never follows up.

So the end result is this. Members notice the draft minutes don't include motions

made at the previous meeting that they were hoping to vote on. In this case the

members moved to correct the minutes thinking that will then correct the agenda

and they can vote on the motions as expected....The Chair cut us off at the knees

when he refused to allow the members to correct the minutes so we in turn

voted in the majority to not approve the minutes. I know...our Union is dysfunctional.

[Chris Harrison]

This format allows the Chair to do nothing when the motion is made and seconded,

yet he then goes and rules the motion out of order in between meetings. (yes,

I know this is also a violation) but it is what he does. He claims, I'm no

Lawyer, I don't know federal law, therefore I consult the Union attorney about the

motion after the meeting and because the motion violates federal law, it's out

of order. Yet when asked whick law, he says he'll refer the Union attorney to you,

who of course never follows up.

You might want to consider contacting your own attorney who is knowledgeable about the laws in question because either the Chair is not contacting the Union Attorney or the Attorney is for whatever reason choosing not to speak with you. Just to check which one it is you all should order that the contact info for the Union Attorney be provided to the Members who can call him themselves.

So the end result is this. Members notice the draft minutes don't include motions

made at the previous meeting that they were hoping to vote on. In this case the

members moved to correct the minutes thinking that will then correct the agenda

and they can vote on the motions as expected....The Chair cut us off at the knees

when he refused to allow the members to correct the minutes so we in turn

voted in the majority to not approve the minutes. I know...our Union is dysfunctional.

The Chair has no right under RONR to refuse to permit corrections to the minutes. I would recommend that the next time he tries to pull that you Appeal his ruling (RONR pp. 247-252). If he refuses to even acknowledge the Appeal see RONR p. 642 from line 10 on. Also, if you all have enough votes (2/3) you can Suspend the Rules to have the Vice Chair (or someone else) preside. See Official Interpretation 2006-2 and this script for details on how to pull it off.

[Gary Novosielski]

If the chair ruled that a main motion was out of order when it was moved should not the minutes say something like a motion by Mr H [text of motion] was ruled out of order by the chair because [the chair's reason for ruling it out of order]

Yes it should.

[Tim Wynn]

If the chair ruled that a main motion was out of order when it was moved should not the minutes say something like a motion by Mr H [text of motion] was ruled out of order by the chair because [the chair's reason for ruling it out of order]

Yes, the minutes should include the motion. See RONR (10th ed.), p. 452, l. 21-23. Also, OI 2006-7 might help.