Discussion Before Motion

[Guest Board Member]

I am a new school board member seeking a solution to a problem I have encountered.

If we have an item on our agenda can we discuss it BEFORE a motion is made. My board currently does not allow discussion of an item of business until after a motion has been made and seconded. This leads to problems when particularly controversial or unclear issues are presented to the board.

Is there a way to allow discussion to occur before a proper motion is made?

[Gary Novosielski]

If there is no motion, there is nothing to discuss.

Once the motion is made, then debate can occur, and any controversial or unclear issues can be amended, perfected, and clarified at that time.

Discussion that occurs without knowing precisely what is being discussed is normally not productive.

[Guest Edgar]

Is there a way to allow discussion to occur before a proper motion is made?

At meetings of "small" boards (where not more than about a dozen members are present), the "relaxed" rules permit informal discussion while no motion is pending. Or at least they did in the 10th edition.

[Noelgroup]

Take a look at RONR in Brief (use the link on the home page here). Really easy to read and explains majority rule and motions and discussions. Recommended!!

[Josh Martin]

Or at least they did in the 10th edition.

Still true in the 11th.

[David A Foulkes]

Well, you've been given a few options which may help you out here. Continuing on....

I am a new school board member seeking a solution to a problem I have encountered.

Being as this is a school board, members here often point out the applicability of other rules (either municipal law, sunshine [public meeting] laws, and the like) which may have some impact. No one has said anything about it yet, so perhaps this time around it isn't a worry.

My board currently does not allow discussion of an item of business until after a motion has been made and seconded. This leads to problems when particularly controversial or unclear issues are presented to the board.

Whether discussion (debate) takes place before or after the motion is on the floor, it will be take place, so what are the problems you face in this?

By the way, before the meeting is called to order, you can all get together and discuss any topics you are aware of (such as items already on the agenda) to your hearts' content (barring that pesky sunshine law again). Just a thought.

[Trina]

I am a new school board member seeking a solution to a problem I have encountered.

If we have an item on our agenda can we discuss it BEFORE a motion is made. My board currently does not allow discussion of an item of business until after a motion has been made and seconded. This leads to problems when particularly controversial or unclear issues are presented to the board.

Is there a way to allow discussion to occur before a proper motion is made?

As others have mentioned, informal discussion is an option if this is a fairly small assembly.

What sort of problems do you observe? One thing that may be worth pointing out is that (when one follows the procedure in RONR) the original motion that starts the ball (of debate) rolling does not have to be perfect by any means. If someone just takes a stab at it, and makes a motion that is on topic, discussion (debate) can then start, and the motion can be amended, and amended, and amended some more as people clarify their understanding and their positions on the topic. I've noticed, in the small and fairly informal organizations I belong to, that people don't have a clear understanding of the amendment process, and I wonder if that is part of the problem you are perceiving.

[Gary Novosielski]

By the way, before the meeting is called to order, you can all get together and discuss any topics you are aware of (such as items already on the agenda) to your hearts' content (barring that pesky sunshine law again). Just a thought.

Now that would be a pretty blatant violation of the sunshine laws of, I would wager, every state in the union.

[Josh Martin]

Now that would be a pretty blatant violation of the sunshine laws of, I would wager, every state in the union.

Let's just stick with what David said and leave it to the original poster to research the particular open meeting laws or "sunshine laws" of the organization's state.

[Guest School Board Member]

As a school board I've been told that we are chiefly a "policy approving" body as opposed to a "policy creating" body. Since we work chiefly on the recommendations of our administration we often are not completely versed on the items found on the agenda.

Recently we ran into a situation where none of the board members felt 100% comfortable with the item to be discussed, that being the case no member made a motion. As a result several school district employees who were present at the meeting well after working hours were given no opportunity to address the board.

In the past we had just made a motion and then either voted against our own motion or rescinded. The local paper started to report only partial explanations and now nobody wants to make a motion they may end up being opposed to.

My question is simply whether we can allow for discussion including 3rd party input to take place before a motion is made to help encourage fully informed decision making.

[Guest Steve Britton]

"My question is simply whether we can allow for discussion including 3rd party input to take place before a motion is made to help encourage fully informed decision making."

Essentially, this is a little different from your initial question. The answer you earlier received regarding small board rules still applies to the "pre-motion debate."

However, RONR doesn't create a strict prohibition from allowing a non-member to speak in the debate or (under the relaxed rules) pre-debate of a motion, it just doesn't give the non-member a "right" to debate. Its up to the assembly whether to allow non-members the opportunity to speak.

RONR/11 pgs. 96-97; "In meetings of many public bodies, such as school boards, the public may attend. Similarly, in some private organizations such as church councils, parishioners may be permitted to attend. These attendees are not members of the meeting body and ordinarily have no right to participate. Some bodies especially public ones, may invite nonmembers to express their views, but this is done under the control of the presiding officer subject to any relevant rules adopted by the body and subject to appeal by a member. Often by rule or practice, time limits are placed on speakers and relevance is closely moitored."

Key to the above passage is the word "invite." Check with your school's attorney regarding your state's public meeting laws and perhaps your school districts charter or other governing documents.

Steve Britton

[Trina]

As a school board I've been told that we are chiefly a "policy approving" body as opposed to a "policy creating" body. Since we work chiefly on the recommendations of our administration we often are not completely versed on the items found on the agenda.

Recently we ran into a situation where none of the board members felt 100% comfortable with the item to be discussed, that being the case no member made a motion. As a result several school district employees who were present at the meeting well after working hours were given no opportunity to address the board.

In the past we had just made a motion and then either voted against our own motion or rescinded. The local paper started to report only partial explanations and now nobody wants to make a motion they may end up being opposed to.

My question is simply whether we can allow for discussion including 3rd party input to take place before a motion is made to help encourage fully informed decision making.

Sure -- if you are following the rules in RONR for 'procedure in small boards' and if your group is in fact fairly small (about a dozen or fewer members), then 'informal disucssion of a subject is permitted while no motion is pending.' (RONR 11th ed. p. 488 ll. 7-8). The assembly may have to make rules about how the informal discussion is structured. Should everyone just talk for however long he/she sees fit? Is there a time limit for the discussion? Or can any member bring it to an end by making an actual motion? You could try this approach, and see how it works for you. There's always a risk that this relatively undisciplined approach could burn up a lot time in meetings.

On the other hand, the situation you described is even more ridiculous, with planned (and presumably necessary) business being skipped entirely because everyone is too chicken to make a motion.

Although not often recommended around here (and more often used by large assemblies), I wonder if going into a committee of the whole might be of use in this situation. The assembly basically tells itself to become a committee, for the purpose of considering a certain subject. While acting as a committee, the group could do all kinds of informal discussing and hashing out ideas, and would eventually 'rise' and report its recommendations back to the assembly. See RONR (11th ed.) pp. 530-538 for lots of details.

All the school boards I've seen (which isn't very many) are pretty small -- if that's the case for your board, just educate the members about the small board rules mentioned near the beginning of my response, and read RONR pp. 487-488.

[Josh Martin]

Although not often recommended around here (and more often used by large assemblies), I wonder if going into a committee of the whole might be of use in this situation. The assembly basically tells itself to become a committee, for the purpose of considering a certain subject. While acting as a committee, the group could do all kinds of informal discussing and hashing out ideas, and would eventually 'rise' and report its recommendations back to the assembly. See RONR (11th ed.) pp. 530-538 for lots of details.

I see no reason whatsoever for a small board to use the motion to enter into Committee of the Whole. The assembly is better off using the informal discussion already permitted under the small board rules. I often also recommend the use of the motion to Recess for small assemblies to hash out business, but it's possible there may be Sunshine Law issues with doing that in a public body.

[Trina]

I see no reason whatsoever for a small board to use the motion to enter into Committee of the Whole. The assembly is better off using the informal discussion already permitted under the small board rules. I often also recommend the use of the motion to Recess for small assemblies to hash out business, but it's possible there may be Sunshine Law issues with doing that in a public body.

I certainly agree. It would be simplest if the members just read and understand that one clear sentence on p. 488.

I mentioned it only because 1) we don't know for sure how large this assembly is -- although it is most likely small; AND 2) because I thought the use of an arcane-sounding phrase like "committee of the whole" might appeal to a membership that is paralyzed into inaction by the presence of an audience -- using those words (even if not perfectly executed in the parliamentary sense) might serve as a signal to the members, and perhaps to the audience, that they are now free to speak more informally, without anyone making a motion.

[Josh Martin]

2) because I thought the use of an arcane-sounding phrase like "committee of the whole" might appeal to a membership that is paralyzed into inaction by the presence of an audience -- using those words (even if not perfectly executed in the parliamentary sense) might serve as a signal to the members, and perhaps to the audience, that they are now free to speak more informally, without anyone making a motion.

Well, I'm a bit puzzled as to why an arcane-sounding phrase would signal to members that they are free to speak more informally (one would think it would do the opposite), but I acknowledge that the members of many assemblies think in unusual ways.