Structuring a ballot

[jstackpo]

If J.J. would allow voters to cast "Yes" votes for more than one choice, that would be "Approval Voting". An unchecked "Yes" or "No" (i.e. an "abstention" for one choice) would tabulate as a "No" vote for that unchecked choice in the Approval system.

This would require bylaw authorization as it departs from the standard "vote for one" rule that applies to a majority or plurality choice.

[jstackpo]

Yes, but as I think you mentioned somewhere up above, the device of filing a blank can be equated with an election only in those situations in which the assembly is under an obligation to fill the blank.

But... no such "obligation" is mentioned in the discussion about viva-voce elections.

[Dan Honemann]

Suggestions to fill a blank in a motion are A, B, C, and D. The society wishes to vote on the suggestions by ballot. Would there be anything that would violate the rules if the assembly would print all options on a single sheet of paper with a "yes" or "no" option for each option and take the vote that way? I think that would be in order under the rules (though there might be practical problems with it).

It seems to me that the assembly would need to vote on each suggestion separately so that, if the first suggestion voted on is rejected, members who voted in favor of it will be able to vote again in balloting on the next suggestion.

[Dan Honemann]

But... no such "obligation" is mentioned in the discussion about viva-voce elections.

You need to understand the nature of an election.

[jstackpo]

Agreed that there "should" be an obligation in viva-voce elections which would correspond to the all but explicit "you gotta elect someone" rule with a ballot election. But someone picking up the book to bone up on the procedures for a v-v election isn't gonna find it. 2020 anyone?

[J. J.]

It seems to me that the assembly would need to vote on each suggestion separately so that, if the first suggestion voted on is rejected, members who voted in favor of it will be able to vote again in balloting on the next suggestion.

As I said, practical problems.

If the majority wants option C, for example, they can vote against options A, B, and D. I do realize that this a lot to expect of the voters. I'm interested in on if just setting up a ballot that way would violate a rule (and what rule).

[Dan Honemann]

As I said, practical problems.

If the majority wants option C, for example, they can vote against options A, B, and D. I do realize that this a lot to expect of the voters. I'm interested in on if just setting up a ballot that way would violate a rule (and what rule).

What about page 164, lines 25-26?

[J. J.]

It would comply with p. 164, ll. 25-26.

If you had four independent and unrelated main motions, the assembly could decide to, after amendment and when the motion is the condition to be put finally, list each on separately on one piece of paper and take the vote on that. The society may simply find it easier to collect and count the ballots that was.

In the case of the suggestions to fill the blank, the ballot could look like this:

"Shall the blank be filled by..."

Suggestion A yes/no

Suggestion B yes/no

Suggestion C yes/no

Suggestion D yes/no

If the majority would want C, they would vote no on Suggestions A and B and yes on Suggestion C. When reading the results, the chair would declare A lost, B lost, and declared C adopted.

I don't think this would violate p. 164, ll. 25-26.

Keep in mind, we are talking about filling the blank in the main motion, not adopting the main motion.

[Josh Martin]

I was expressing my frustration with the committee's lack of proper procedure.

Thanks for clearing that up.

On your question of the ballot: The results of the final ballot will be reported to the union and the union will negotiate with the village to include it into the contract. Once the union and village have done their work, the contract, including the schedule, will be given to the members for ratification...50 + 1 = majority. So, I guess the answer to your question is, Yes, the ballot is essentially a survey.

Well, that solves all of your problems (for now). Since this is not a formal vote and therefore not governed by parliamentary law, the committee is free to do whatever it feels would most accurately convey the will of the membership. It may be wise for the committee to include the difficulties it has encountered in its report. Then the union can argue about what the survey results mean, and then the members will make the final decision in the vote for contract ratification.

As you can see from the discussion that has followed, if you were trying to decide the issue with these strange ballots, things would have been much more complicated.

[Dan Honemann]

It would comply with p. 164, ll. 25-26.

If you had four independent and unrelated main motions, the assembly could decide to, after amendment and when the motion is the condition to be put finally, list each on separately on one piece of paper and take the vote on that. The society may simply find it easier to collect and count the ballots that was.

In the case of the suggestions to fill the blank, the ballot could look like this:

"Shall the blank be filled by..."

Suggestion A yes/no

Suggestion B yes/no

Suggestion C yes/no

Suggestion D yes/no

If the majority would want C, they would vote no on Suggestions A and B and yes on Suggestion C. When reading the results, the chair would declare A lost, B lost, and declared C adopted.

I don't think this would violate p. 164, ll. 25-26.

Keep in mind, we are talking about filling the blank in the main motion, not adopting the main motion.

J.J., what you are proposing does not treat each suggestion “as an independent original to be voted on separately until one is approved by a majority” (p. 164, ll. 25-26).

In order to meet this requirement, if the first suggestion voted on is rejected, all members must then be able to vote for or against the next suggestion. If it is also rejected, all members must then be able to vote for or against the next suggestion, and so on. Each of these separate votes can be taken by any method of voting, but obviously not all at once by a single ballot.

Drawing a comparison with voting on main motions makes no sense at all. Of course main motions may be voted on in different segments of a single ballot. This is because they may be voted on by separate ballots all cast at the same time. Suggestions for filling a blank very obviously cannot be voted on in such a fashion.

[J. J.]

J.J., what you are proposing does not treat each suggestion “as an independent original to be voted on separately until one is approved by a majority” (p. 164, ll. 25-26).

In order to meet this requirement, if the first suggestion voted on is rejected, all members must then be able to vote for or against the next suggestion. If it is also rejected, all members must then be able to vote for or against the next suggestion, and so on. Each of these separate votes can be taken by any method of voting, but obviously not all at once by a single ballot.

Well, I think it would treat each option as an independent original, assuming that the voters understand that, as they would have to on a voice vote or on a single ballot vote, that if they favor a later option, they must vote against an earlier option. For example, if the voter favors suggestion C, they must vote against options A, B, and D. I don't agree that the voter would would have to know the outcome of the vote on suggestion A in order to cast a vote on suggestions B, C, and D.

Now, there are practical problems, i.e. the voter might not realize that if they favor one suggestion, they will have to vote against the other suggestions, but that is not the aspect of the question that I am asking.

The members decide to take a separate vote on suggestions A, B, C, and D. They decide to do it by ballot. The also, perhaps for expediency, decide that each option will be listed separately, with a yes/no box. The vote on A, B, and D is 20 yes and 80 no. The vote option C is 51 yes 49 no. I think would treat each of them as an "independent original."

[Dan Honemann]

Well, I think it would treat each option as an independent original, assuming that the voters understand that, as they would have to on a voice vote or on a single ballot vote, that if they favor a later option, they must vote against an earlier option. For example, if the voter favors suggestion C, they must vote against options A, B, and D. I don't agree that the voter would would have to know the outcome of the vote on suggestion A in order to cast a vote on suggestions B, C, and D.

Now, there are practical problems, i.e. the voter might not realize that if they favor one suggestion, they will have to vote against the other suggestions, but that is not the aspect of the question that I am asking.

The members decide to take a separate vote on suggestions A, B, C, and D. They decide to do it by ballot. The also, perhaps for expediency, decide that each option will be listed separately, with a yes/no box. The vote on A, B, and D is 20 yes and 80 no. The vote option C is 51 yes 49 no. I think would treat each of them as an "independent original."

J.J., I'm afraid that this discussion is going nowhere, and must end here as far as this thread is concerned.

Please feel free to start your own thread if you wish to continue in some fashion.