Guest Bob Posted August 20, 2012 at 08:25 PM Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 at 08:25 PM Our association has a member that was suspended for a year. We anticipate, rightly so, that he will be coming back in September. Now part of the suspension states they must "reapply" which I think is totally unfair since that have been a member of our association for years. Part of being a "member" they must have paid their membership fee by December 31 of each year, attend a clinic and pass an exam. The member "year" is considered September 1 to August 31, however, payment of membership dues as I mentioned by Dec 31.Now, the member is being told they have to reapply, but it was the discipline committee who made this person miss the clinic, exam, and payment of fee, not the member's fault. (BTW, the person who was suspended is taking legal action over this suspension in the first place). I am going to safely assume, the BOD is going to attempt to refuse his membership back in to the association.My understanding is come Sept 1, no one is an official member until all 3 of the requirements are fullfilled, so even if they refused him back, no one can vote against him being a member or disallowing him to participate in the clinic, or exam or vote for him to be expelled from the association if it came to that in one of our general meetings because only "member" make that decision. Would that be correct? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted August 20, 2012 at 09:08 PM Report Share Posted August 20, 2012 at 09:08 PM Our association has a member that was suspended for a year. We anticipate, rightly so, that he will be coming back in September. Now part of the suspension states they must "reapply" which I think is totally unfair since that have been a member of our association for years. Part of being a "member" they must have paid their membership fee by December 31 of each year, attend a clinic and pass an exam. The member "year" is considered September 1 to August 31, however, payment of membership dues as I mentioned by Dec 31.Now, the member is being told they have to reapply, but it was the discipline committee who made this person miss the clinic, exam, and payment of fee, not the member's fault. (BTW, the person who was suspended is taking legal action over this suspension in the first place). I am going to safely assume, the BOD is going to attempt to refuse his membership back in to the association.My understanding is come Sept 1, no one is an official member until all 3 of the requirements are fullfilled, so even if they refused him back, no one can vote against him being a member or disallowing him to participate in the clinic, or exam or vote for him to be expelled from the association if it came to that in one of our general meetings because only "member" make that decision. Would that be correct?This question is based on your bylaws, not on RONR. A complete review of your bylaws would be necessary to determine the answer, which is beyond the scope of this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMargaret Posted August 21, 2012 at 01:19 AM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 01:19 AM Something to look for in your bylaws is a definition of member, and the qualifications and payment obligations of membership. If I understand your post correctly, your argument is that there won't be any members as of September 1, 2012, because that's when the membership year starts, but people won't have paid their dues until December 2012? Actually, I'm not sure I have understood you correctly.In RONR, page 571, it states that "Before a member in arrears has been finally dropped under such a provision, his voting rights cannot be suspended unless the bylaws so provide". I would suspect that after December, voting rights may be dropped, but between September 1st and December they wouldn't be - but that's just a guess. Read your bylaws. Also read the discipline section of your bylaws - is this person still a member? Has he been expelled, suspended, or some other specific provision? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Posted August 21, 2012 at 05:49 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 05:49 PM To be a member in good standing one must: 1) write our national exam 2) go to the required clinic 3) pay the membership fee due by Dec 31. Our regular membership year is considered Sept 1 to August 31. However, payment of our membership fees is due Dec 31. Stupid system but that is how they have it worked out. To be a member come Sept 1 the BOD require a person to write to them in order to be considered a "member". But as I stated come Sept 1, the new exam is not written, the new clinic has not been attended, and new fees have not been collected, so I feel no one is a member therefore, no one can vote to have this person refused membership or not to be able to attend clinics and write the exam.The member in question was suspended for a period that took him beyond Dec 31 and in to the new year. His membership fee deadline pass but only because of his suspension and refusal of the BOD to accept the payment. He did not attend the clinic because part of the suspension was that he lost that right. Again the BOD decided that, it was not the fault of the person suspended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted August 21, 2012 at 05:55 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 05:55 PM But as I stated come Sept 1, the new exam is not written, the new clinic has not been attended, and new fees have not been collected, so I feel no one is a member therefore, no one can vote to have this person refused membership or not to be able to attend clinics and write the exam.If you think (or, worse, feel) that as of September 1 there are no members in your organization, you have problems which this humble forum can't resolve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:02 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:02 PM I am just anticipating our BOD will attempt to refuse this member who has every right to be a member of our association. They are scape goating him and preventing him every way possible to be a member again. I just want to know what other members rights are to protect this person and for them to protect themselves as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMargaret Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:35 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:35 PM I strong suggest that you buy, and read, Robert's Rules in Brief:http://www.robertsrules.com/inbrief.htmlIt is a lovely and understandable little book, that will set out things like "The "Why and Wherefore" of Meeting Rules", and "How Are Rules Enforced and How Are They Suspended?".In answer to your question about what other member rights are to protect this person, they are to read the bylaws, for one, and to understand how the RONR affects your bylaws, and also to understand the rule of common sense.Do you have a copy of your bylaws? (don't post them, that was a question). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:41 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:41 PM I am just anticipating our BOD will attempt to refuse this member who has every right to be a member of our association. They are scape goating him and preventing him every way possible to be a member again. I just want to know what other members rights are to protect this person and for them to protect themselves as well.So, you've given up the notion that no one will be a member? That's good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:50 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:50 PM Oh yes I have a copy of the bylaws. Again they are written in "basic" format.To Tim.....how is one a "member" as of Sept 1 when they have not met the requirements to be one when officially the membership "year" ended August 31? That is the crux of my issue. How can one be an official member when no one has technically met the requirements as of September 1? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:57 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 06:57 PM Oh yes I have a copy of the bylaws. Again they are written in "basic" format.To Tim.....how is one a "member" as of Sept 1 when they have not met the requirements to be one when officially the membership "year" ended August 31? That is the crux of my issue. How can one be an official member when no one has technically met the requirements as of September 1?I'm sorry, I'm fairly certain you said payment was due by December something. I imagine the trees are hindering your view of the forest, here. Or, perhaps, I don't under stand what "due by" means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted August 21, 2012 at 07:04 PM Report Share Posted August 21, 2012 at 07:04 PM Do the bylaws actually say that someone loses their membership if they haven't paid their dues, written their exam, and attended the clinic by 12/31? Also, do the bylaws require that someone write the Board to request membership? It sounds like you might be dealing with a Board who is getting too big for its britches (trying to exercise authority that the bylaws and/or Membership hasn't given it). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Posted September 11, 2012 at 07:13 PM Report Share Posted September 11, 2012 at 07:13 PM Hi....yes the bylaws state you are are considered a member not in good standing 1) when you fail to pay your due 2) not write the exam 3) not attend clinic 4) be suspended. You cannot vote, you cannt attend any meetings, and will not receive any games or notices from the association. And yes they also state you need to contact the Executive if you are considered a member in good standing when you have attained all. Yes I completely agree they are getting too big and definately exercising rights THEY don't have.As per the other note....."membership dues" are due no later than December 31 of each year. However, in order to be a member to VOTE or be considered in good standing you need to attend clinic, write exam and pay your due and not be suspended. They use December 31 as they wait and take money off their payouts if people choose to allow association to wait that long.But the problem is between Sept 1 to December 31, the BOD has the members vote on things but in reality no one should technically be able to since they are NOT MEMBERS. See the problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary c Tesser Posted September 12, 2012 at 03:27 AM Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 at 03:27 AM I think that most, if not all, of this is a question about Guest Bob's organization's own rules (including, but not necessarily only, its bylaws), not about RONR. So I don't think we can be much help here. I'll suggest you write to Ron Paul or David Foulkes or Venus Williams for some discussion.(N. B. I don't think Ron Paul or Venus Williams will be of much help.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMargaret Posted September 12, 2012 at 02:20 PM Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 at 02:20 PM I will point out to Guest_Bob (welcome back, by the way! anything happen since your last set of posts?), RONR, pages 588 to 591, principles of interpretation of bylaws, and specifically item 2: "When a provision of the bylaws is susceptible to two meanings, one of which conflicts with or renders absurd another bylaw provision, and the other meaning does not, the latter must be taken as the true meaning."It is up to your members to interpret your bylaws. I will submit, in my opinion, that interpreting a bylaw provision that removes rights from members who have not completed a specific course of action by December 31st, to mean that nobody cannot be a member before December 31st, would be absurd, given the ramifications to the association - but as I'm not a member of this association, my opinion isn't even worth 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim Wynn Posted September 12, 2012 at 10:31 PM Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 at 10:31 PM I will point out to Guest_Bob (welcome back, by the way! anything happen since your last set of posts?), RONR, pages 588 to 591, principles of interpretation of bylaws, and specifically item 2: "When a provision of the bylaws is susceptible to two meanings, one of which conflicts with or renders absurd another bylaw provision, and the other meaning does not, the latter must be taken as the true meaning."It is up to your members to interpret your bylaws. I will submit, in my opinion, that interpreting a bylaw provision that removes rights from members who have not completed a specific course of action by December 31st, to mean that nobody cannot be a member before December 31st, would be absurd, given the ramifications to the association . . .There you go.(by the way, I'm interpreting "nobody cannot be a member" to mean "nobody can be a member," under the same principle of interpretation that is discussed in this post) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted September 12, 2012 at 10:46 PM Report Share Posted September 12, 2012 at 10:46 PM (by the way, I'm interpreting "nobody cannot be a member" to mean "nobody can be a member," under the same principle of interpretation that is discussed in this post)I hope you're right. Trying to figure what "nobody cannot be a member" meant gave me a headache. Maybe it's a Canadian thing. What with their cheques and colours and such. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Bob Posted September 14, 2012 at 04:11 PM Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 at 04:11 PM haha....actually lots happened....the "Executive" have made the determination that person was NOT a member and they think they can ascertain who is a member and who isn't which again, is not up to them. Their job is to approve the membership list IF the "persons" have met all the criteria to be or remain a member. They do not have authority to suspend the bylaws or exempt any one who has not fullfilled the criteria. It has not been put forth to the membership as of yet. I am looking forward to our initial meeting coming up. I don't think there is any conflict in interpretation or 2 ambiguos meanings. It states outright...you must have all 4 criteria met prior to December 31 to be considered a member.And to Edgar....maybe you could say rooooooooooooooooooooooooof for me a few times...how goes Honey Boo Boo??! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted September 14, 2012 at 08:37 PM Report Share Posted September 14, 2012 at 08:37 PM And to Edgar....maybe you could say rooooooooooooooooooooooooof for me a few times...how goes Honey Boo Boo??! At this point I need to mark this thread as "un-follow." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMargaret Posted September 15, 2012 at 04:21 PM Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 at 04:21 PM haha....actually lots happened....the "Executive" have made the determination that person was NOT a member and they think they can ascertain who is a member and who isn't which again, is not up to them. Their job is to approve the membership list IF the "persons" have met all the criteria to be or remain a member. They do not have authority to suspend the bylaws or exempt any one who has not fullfilled the criteria. It has not been put forth to the membership as of yet. I am looking forward to our initial meeting coming up. I don't think there is any conflict in interpretation or 2 ambiguos meanings. It states outright...you must have all 4 criteria met prior to December 31 to be considered a member.Bob, you did state earlier that "i....yes the bylaws state you are are considered a member not in good standing 1) when you fail to pay your due 2) not write the exam 3) not attend clinic 4) be suspended."There is a big difference between "you are a member not in good standing if you haven't paid your dues by December 31st", and "you are not a member until you pay your dues". You also state that the executive shouldn't be determining if a person is a member or not, and then say that their job is to approve the membership list - which presumably would include determining if a person is a member or not?It's all very confusing, and ambiguous. If this forum is finding what you've mentioned of your bylaws to be ambiguous - and there are some very knowledgeable people here - then perhaps you may wish to consider that there is some ambiguity. In other words, don't base the whole meeting on trying to persuade people that nobody can be a member until after December 31st, because that would be nonsensical and completely disrupt your organization. It is up to your members to interpret your bylaws - not just you, and not just your board. And to Edgar....maybe you could say rooooooooooooooooooooooooof for me a few times...how goes Honey Boo Boo??! No clue what you're talking about there - is it humour of some kind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trina Posted September 15, 2012 at 04:42 PM Report Share Posted September 15, 2012 at 04:42 PM ...No clue what you're talking about there - is it humour of some kind?No clue here either, but somehow it smells like something I don't want to touch with a ten-foot pole. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Needing Help Posted September 18, 2012 at 08:30 PM Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 at 08:30 PM Is there a definition of "member in good standing" in RONR? Where can I find this or can someone post the defintion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted September 18, 2012 at 08:45 PM Report Share Posted September 18, 2012 at 08:45 PM Is there a definition of "member in good standing" in RONR? Where can I find this or can someone post the defintion?See #6, here.And, for future reference, this forum works best if you post your new question as a new topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Needs Help Posted September 19, 2012 at 12:23 AM Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 at 12:23 AM "6. Addition of a definition of a member “in good standing” [6]." Ok, I don't see a definition and I don't have a book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted September 19, 2012 at 01:05 AM Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 at 01:05 AM Members in good standing are those whose rights as members of the assembly are not under suspension as a consequence of disciplinary proceedings or by operation of some specific provision in the bylaws. (p.6 footnote) Of course, your bylaws may define "good standing" in some other fashion, but if not, this is how RONR defines it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Needing Help Posted September 19, 2012 at 03:27 AM Report Share Posted September 19, 2012 at 03:27 AM Thanks, David! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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