Guest Patsfan Posted December 21, 2012 at 05:01 PM Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 at 05:01 PM When a person acts as Secretary to the Board of Directors (Home owners Assoc) does any work done in that capacity belong to the person doing the work or does it belong to the Assoc.? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 21, 2012 at 05:16 PM Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 at 05:16 PM When a person acts as Secretary to the Board of Directors (Home owners Assoc) does any work done in that capacity belong to the person doing the work or does it belong to the Assoc.?Ownership is typically a legal matter, not a parliamentary one, but I'll go out on a limb and say that, more often than not, any work done by the secretary as secretary belongs to the association.(This is where Mr. Honemann comes in and says I should have stopped right before the second comma.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g40 Posted December 21, 2012 at 05:18 PM Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 at 05:18 PM It would seem to me that "work" belongs to the association. This would include minutes, correspondence, and so forth. What kind of "work" in the capacity as Secretary might anyone consider personal property? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lages Posted December 21, 2012 at 07:29 PM Report Share Posted December 21, 2012 at 07:29 PM I believe the secretary's notes used to prepare the minutes would probably be considered personal property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted December 22, 2012 at 10:14 AM Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 at 10:14 AM I believe the secretary's notes used to prepare the minutes would probably be considered personal property.O Bruce, our first quarrel.c.t. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted December 22, 2012 at 12:26 PM Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 at 12:26 PM O Bruce, our first quarrel.c.t. 1Why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted December 22, 2012 at 12:38 PM Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 at 12:38 PM "Bruce Lages, on 21 December 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:I believe the secretary's notes used to prepare the minutes would probably be considered personal property.""Nancy N., on 22 December 2012 - 05:14 AM, said:O Bruce, our first quarrel.c.t. 1"Why?Because I thing that while anyone there can take whatever notes they want, the secretary is not personally taking notes, but is doing so as the officer charged with that duty. Those notes therefore are, if you will (or if you won't, unless you turn out to be right), the official draft. They have hegemony: that's why they are read first, when up for approval, if anyone submits a competing version (been there, done that; ugly scene).ct 1(O my, the sun is up, and so is David.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted December 22, 2012 at 12:46 PM Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 at 12:46 PM O Nancy, our first quarrel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 22, 2012 at 08:11 PM Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 at 08:11 PM When a person acts as Secretary to the Board of Directors (Home owners Assoc) does any work done in that capacity belong to the person doing the work or does it belong to the Assoc.?As a matter of parliamentary law, certainly any of the documents described under the Secretary's duties in RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 458-460 are the property of the society. Anything beyond that would be up to the rules, motions, and customs of the society.With that said... unless this is just a hypothetical question, I think you need a lawyer more than a parliamentarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Lages Posted December 22, 2012 at 09:29 PM Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 at 09:29 PM Actually, Nancy, I believe you told me a year or two ago that we were having our first quarrel. Glad I made it this long before the second one showed up. I would certainly be in awe of any secretary that could take meeting notes in such a way that they would immediately serve as the draft minutes. My response was based on the idea that most mortal secretaries would have to use their meeting notes to create the draft minutes, which may or may not be the property of the organization (agree with Josh that this might be more of a legal question). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Hunt Posted December 22, 2012 at 09:56 PM Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 at 09:56 PM I would certainly be in awe of any secretary that could take meeting notes in such a way that they would immediately serve as the draft minutes.It's quite doable with the help of a computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shmuel Gerber Posted December 22, 2012 at 11:51 PM Report Share Posted December 22, 2012 at 11:51 PM It's quite doable with the help of a computer.So those bits constituting the draft minutes would belong to the society? :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 23, 2012 at 02:21 AM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 02:21 AM So those bits constituting the draft minutes would belong to the society? :-)I think that question is beyond the scope of RONR and this forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Nancy N. Posted December 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 12:16 PM Actually, Nancy, I believe you told me a year or two ago that we were having our first quarrel. Glad I made it this long before the second one showed up. I should not like to think I would ever have occasion to quarrel with Bruce Lages more than once (which itself is too many). Whence the first quarrels pile up.I would certainly be in awe of any secretary that could take meeting notes in such a way that they would immediately serve as the draft minutes. For a first draft? What's awesome about chicken scratches, if that's what the secretary starts with? (I agree with Guest_Edgar, post 2.)My response was based on the idea that most mortal secretaries would have to use their meeting notes to create the draft minutes, which may or may not be the property of the organization (agree with Josh that this might be more of a legal question).Since, as was shown most grievously around February (in the Advanced Discussion forum), largely by Mr. Balch, who politely handed our hats to some of us with our heads still in them, in his gracious parliamentarianly and courtly Southern way, the organization's parliamentary authority can dictate what the secretary does on his own, between meetings, at his house or in his car or during some downtime of a shocking illicit assignation at some tawdry seedy (maybe sleazy, I'm on the fence about this one) motel with a person of low repute (or an aspiring person of low repute like me), so long as the secretary was spending that time preparing the minutes, I think that this demonstrable ownership, by the society, of the secretary's out-of-meeting time and behavior logically and perforce extends to the physical product of this time and behavior, to wit (or i.e., I forget which is which), to all drafts of the minutes, including -- especially including -- the notes that were written on the spot at the meeting (what General Robert called "[the secretary's] original pencil notes in a pocket memorandum book which he carries to every meeting" in the footnote on p. 248, 1951; about which he goes on to say, "and these original notes, as corrected, are approved and then copied into the permanent records.... the original notes should be kept until they are carefully compared with the permanent records.") It seems clear, then, that what the organization owns is the property of the organization (almost a tautology), and therefore nohow the secretary's personal property. Quod erat demonstrandum (four more Latin words for you, Dan).c.t. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Sir Nancelot Posted December 23, 2012 at 12:24 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 12:24 PM Oops, the period should have been outside the parentheses, after "the permanent records." My apologies for any resultant confusion. Oh, and I should send Mr Balch a note to alert him he has probably been misquoted accurately again.c.t. #5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted December 23, 2012 at 01:57 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 01:57 PM I believe the secretary's notes used to prepare the minutes would probably be considered personal property.So do I.Nothing in RONR says that the secretary's notes used to prepare the minutes belong to anyone other than the secretary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
g40 Posted December 23, 2012 at 02:45 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 02:45 PM So do I.Nothing in RONR says that the secretary's notes used to prepare the minutes belong to anyone other than the secretary.Perhaps the OP could elaborate on the specific issues in contention.While it seems to me that the notes of the secretary used to prepare the minutes belong to the Secretary, if those "notes" were taken in a gold embossed, expensive notebook, and taken with a $500 pen and carried in a diamond case, (all purchased by the organization), then I think the valuable tangible property would belong to the society. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 23, 2012 at 02:49 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 02:49 PM Nothing in RONR says that the secretary's notes used to prepare the minutes belong to anyone other than the secretary.But do they belong to the secretary ex officio? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted December 23, 2012 at 03:03 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 03:03 PM But do they belong to the secretary ex officio?The secretary can, and usually does, throw his notes away. His duty, as secretary, is to present a draft of minutes to the assembly for its approval. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 23, 2012 at 04:07 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 04:07 PM Perhaps the OP could elaborate on the specific issues in contention.Yes, that could help steer the discussion back in a useful course, or more clearly demonstrate that this is lawyer territory (depending on what the specific issues are). I somehow doubt it's about the notes the Secretary uses to prepare the draft minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Patsfan Posted December 23, 2012 at 04:26 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 04:26 PM Thanks for your responses! This was an assigned task given to the Sec. by the BOD to update the data base of properties within the Assoc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 23, 2012 at 04:29 PM Report Share Posted December 23, 2012 at 04:29 PM This was an assigned task given to the Sec. by the BOD to update the data base of properties within the Assoc.Thank you. This is definitely beyond the scope of RONR and this forum, and if there is a dispute over ownership you should consult a lawyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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