Guest Ann Posted January 16, 2013 at 02:54 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 02:54 PM We are having some difficulty convincing some board members how abstentions work. Would someone settle it for us outside our small society? We have 19 board members. On a 2/3 vote with one person abstaining, how many votes in the affirmative are required to pass the measure. The argument is whether or not the one abstention is removed from the 19 (which would make 2/3 12 votes in the affirmative) or if the abstention simply becomes a 'no' vote since it cannot be an affirmative and be part of 2/3 of 19 which would be 13 votes. Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMargaret Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:03 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:03 PM See FAQ #6: http://www.robertsrules.com/faq.html#6An abstention is not a vote and is not counted as a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ann Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:14 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:14 PM We know it is not a vote but that's still where we have some members who disagree, we have read all of the materials. The question is WHEN is it not a vote? Is it not a vote so it is removed from the total number of votes available to be cast which in our case is 19 so 2/3 is 13 votes, or is it not a vote when the votes are counted making the available votes only 18 so the 2/3 would be only 12 votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:20 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:20 PM The question is WHEN is it not a vote?An abstention is never a vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ann Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:23 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:23 PM Perhaps I'm not expressing this correctly. If a 2/3 vote is required of a 19 person board where there are 19 people present, if one person abstains from voting, what is the number of affirmative votes required to pass a measure requiring 2/3 votes, 12 or 13? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Britton Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:27 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:27 PM What is your voting threshold?A majority of those present and voting; or a majority of those present? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Britton Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:35 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:35 PM Perhaps I'm not expressing this correctly. If a 2/3 vote is required of a 19 person board where there are 19 people present, if one person abstains from voting, what is the number of affirmative votes required to pass a measure requiring 2/3 votes, 12 or 13? Thanks.If the voting threshold is a majority of those presented and voting: any combination where there are at least twice as many affirmative votes (than negative votes) will adopt the motion. In theory, a two in favor and one against,(or just one affirmative, with zero negative votes for that matter) will adopt the motion (ignore the abstentions).If the voting threshold is a majority of those present and 19 members are present, you need 13 affirmative votes to adopt the motion (ignore the abstentions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:36 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:36 PM With a few exceptions (when the bylaws require a higher voting threshold or RONR requires a majority of the entire membership [of the body which is meeting]) the result is calculated from the total number of actual votes cast. So if out of 19 members present 18 of them vote it would take at least 12 for a motion requiring a 2/3 vote to properly pass. A good way to figure out whether a motion passed by a 2/3 vote is whether at least twice the number of members voted in favor of it as opposed to those who voted against it.What is your voting threshold? A majority of those present and voting; or a majority of those present?...Or if there are a total of 19 members on the Board (as Ann seemed to suggest in her original post) a majority of the entire membership (of the Board)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:37 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:37 PM If a 2/3 vote is required of a 19 person board where there are 19 people present, if one person abstains from voting, what is the number of affirmative votes required to pass a measure requiring 2/3 votes, 12 or 13?If a two-thirds vote is needed, you just need at least twice as many "yes" votes as "no" votes.A vote of 1-0, with all other members abstaining, will meet the requirement of a two-thirds vote. If eighteen members vote, you'll need at least twelve affirmative votes (e,g. a vote of 12-6). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ann Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:42 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:42 PM Thanks. The question we couldn't resolve was not how many people were present and voted but how many were required to make a 2/3 majority of all the directors of the board which is the threshold for this particular vote. Some thought it would be 12 since a person did not vote but others thought it would be 13 since the requirement is 2/3 of the members, not just the members present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:56 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 03:56 PM . . . how many were required to make a 2/3 majority of all the directors of the board which is the threshold for this particular vote.Well, that's not the same as a two-thirds vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steven Britton Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:12 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:12 PM ...Or if there are a total of 19 members on the Board (as Ann seemed to suggest in her original post) a majority of the entire membership (of the Board)?Well, if the threshold is based on the total number of board members (instead of the board members present) and all nineteen members are present, the answer would still be thirteen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:14 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:14 PM a 2/3 majority of all the directors of the boardHow many director are there? In other words, if you counted "all the directors of the board", what would the result be? You said in your first post you had 19 board members, so we must assume that is the answer.Now, what is 2/3 of 19? Well, it's 12.6666666666666666~.So, you need at least 12 2/3 affirmative votes. You can imagine that means 13.As Edgar hinted at, the phrase "2/3 majority" causes some discomfort for some here, in that it is not a phrase supported by RONR, where you can have a majority vote, or a 2/3 vote, but not both. But we'll leave it to you to figure out what "2/3 majority" means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:14 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:14 PM Well, that's not the same as a two-thirds vote.Not even close to being the same. If the threshold is indeed 2/3 of the entire membership of the Board and there are 19 members then it would be 13 members required in order to adopt the motion (see FAQ #6). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:21 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:21 PM As Edgar hinted at, the phrase "2/3 majority" causes some discomfort for some here,Well, I certainly didn't intend to hint at that since I'm not one of those made uncomfortable by the phrase "2/3 majority". I also don't lose any sleep over "simple majority" or "super majority".What I was distinguishing between was a two-thirds vote and the affirmative vote of two-thirds of the entire membership of the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:26 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 04:26 PM Well, I certainly didn't intend to hint at that since I'm not one of those made uncomfortable by the phrase "2/3 majority". I also don't lose any sleep over "simple majority" or "super majority".What I was distinguishing between was a two-thirds vote and the affirmative vote of two-thirds of the entire membership of the board.Ah, yesss.... good point..... forgive me for dragging you in deeper. <winky face here> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sMargaret Posted January 16, 2013 at 07:09 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 07:09 PM Thanks. The question we couldn't resolve was not how many people were present and voted but how many were required to make a 2/3 majority of all the directors of the board which is the threshold for this particular vote. Some thought it would be 12 since a person did not vote but others thought it would be 13 since the requirement is 2/3 of the members, not just the members present.You do realize that this is a VERY DIFFERENT QUESTION than the one you asked, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted January 16, 2013 at 07:56 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 07:56 PM Thanks. The question we couldn't resolve was not how many people were present and voted but how many were required to make a 2/3 majority of all the directors of the board which is the threshold for this particular vote. Some thought it would be 12 since a person did not vote but others thought it would be 13 since the requirement is 2/3 of the members, not just the members present.You've actually managed to mix in all three of the general bases for voting:Present and voting (at the meeting and casting an aye or no vote)Members present (at the meeting, regardless of voting or abstaining)Entire membership (member of the assembly, whether present or not)Once you're clear on what the true voting requirement is (the proportion that must concur, and the set of members to which the proportion applies -- p. 402 ll. 26-31) your answer should become clear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Ann Posted January 16, 2013 at 08:51 PM Report Share Posted January 16, 2013 at 08:51 PM Thanks for all the info, I think we finally have the answer. You're right sMargaret, I asked the wrong question to begin with and I'm sorry to have made it more confusing. We appreciate your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted January 17, 2013 at 03:35 PM Report Share Posted January 17, 2013 at 03:35 PM We know it is not a vote but that's still where we have some members who disagree, we have read all of the materials. The question is WHEN is it not a vote? Is it not a vote so it is removed from the total number of votes available to be cast which in our case is 19 so 2/3 is 13 votes, or is it not a vote when the votes are counted making the available votes only 18 so the 2/3 would be only 12 votes.Abstentions simply are not counted and do not count, since those who abstain, although present, are not voting. Except forsome specific local rule of yours, nearly all votes are expressed as some fraction "of those present and voting".So, a 2/3 vote is satisfied whenever Yes votes are at least twice as many as the No votes. People who vote neither yes nor no have not voted at all.Similarly, a majority vote is satisfied whenever there are more Yes votes than there are No votes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted January 18, 2013 at 12:36 AM Report Share Posted January 18, 2013 at 12:36 AM Except forsome specific local rule of yours, nearly all votes are expressed as some fraction "of those present and voting".Yes, but it seems there is a "specific local rule." See Post #10. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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