rlm841 Posted December 9, 2013 at 08:36 PM Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 at 08:36 PM We have just found out that the President and his wife who is also the treasurer and running for office too has sent out absentee ballots with a card inclosed telling the person to vote for him and those on his slate and not to incude the card in the ballot. Is this legal?? We were told the secretary was supposed to do that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 9, 2013 at 08:45 PM Report Share Posted December 9, 2013 at 08:45 PM We have just found out that the President and his wife who is also the treasurer and running for office too has sent out absentee ballots with a card inclosed telling the person to vote for him and those on his slate and not to incude the card in the ballot. Is this legal?? We were told the secretary was supposed to do that. For starters, are absentee ballots authorized in your bylaws? If not, they are not permitted. Assuming they are authorized, it is generally the responsibility of the Secretary to send out absentee ballots, although your rules may provide otherwise. RONR does not directly address the topic of enclosing campaign materials with the ballots, but it certainly seems inappropriate for the sitting officers to do so if such an opportunity is not also afforded to other candidates. In my opinion, these irregularities would not invalidate the election, but they could certainly be grounds for disciplinary action against those responsible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlm841 Posted December 10, 2013 at 01:28 PM Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 at 01:28 PM The other candidates don't have access to the asbsentee ballots. Last night the issue was presented to the Association lawyer (she is at all meetings at the request of the president and is costing the community a lot of money.) She just brushed it off and did nothing but that is understandable as if the other candidates win they will put a stop to her being a all the meeting and probably retain anthoer lawyer. We feel that since what they did was wrong the all absentee ballots should be voided. But she won't let that happen. Thank you for your input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted December 10, 2013 at 01:39 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 at 01:39 PM Yeah, but... Primary (unanswered) question: are absentee ballots authorized in your association bylaws (or by local, state law if applicable)? Your lawyer is (presumably) not a member. MEMBERS decide what happens, usually by majority vote, not (even paid) non-members. The latter are advisors (and not very good ones, from what you say). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 10, 2013 at 01:44 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 at 01:44 PM We feel that since what they did was wrong the all absentee ballots should be voided. But she won't let that happen. Guess what? It's not up to her. If y'all think you should start over, start over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlm841 Posted December 10, 2013 at 02:12 PM Author Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 at 02:12 PM Yes the absentee ballots are authrozied in our by-laws.what we would like to happen it remove the President and his wife from the ballot. Only problem is the election is tomorrow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted December 10, 2013 at 02:25 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 at 02:25 PM You may not have much time (!) but get up a write-in campaign (or nominate from the floor) a better candidate or two and vote for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted December 10, 2013 at 03:17 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 at 03:17 PM Yes the absentee ballots are authrozied in our by-laws.what we would like to happen it remove the President and his wife from the ballot. Only problem is the election is tomorrow Does the fact that the president and his wife sent out these absentee ballots violate any rule that your organization has adopted? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 10, 2013 at 04:48 PM Report Share Posted December 10, 2013 at 04:48 PM The other candidates don't have access to the asbsentee ballots. Last night the issue was presented to the Association lawyer (she is at all meetings at the request of the president and is costing the community a lot of money.) She just brushed it off and did nothing but that is understandable as if the other candidates win they will put a stop to her being a all the meeting and probably retain anthoer lawyer. We feel that since what they did was wrong the all absentee ballots should be voided. But she won't let that happen. The facts presented do not suggest that the absentee ballots should be voided. If y'all think you should start over, start over. Since when is "y'all think you should start over" sufficient cause to invalidate an election? what we would like to happen it remove the President and his wife from the ballot. Only problem is the election is tomorrow I haven't yet heard any facts which would suggest that it is in order to remove them from the ballot. If you don't want them to be elected, vote for other people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted December 11, 2013 at 02:50 AM Report Share Posted December 11, 2013 at 02:50 AM Yes the absentee ballots are authrozied in our by-laws.what we would like to happen it remove the President and his wife from the ballot. Only problem is the election is tomorrowWell, if the "we" that you refer to comprises a majority of the voters, then there is no problem, as the president and his wife will surely lose the election. There is no problem with scoundrels remaining on the ballot, as long as nobody votes for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlm841 Posted December 13, 2013 at 10:46 AM Author Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 at 10:46 AM Well, the election is over and they won. The lawyer (who like I had written before is at EVERY meeting at the presidents request and is costing the communtiy a lot of money.) Of course shejustifies everything he does. Also instead of the secretary having the absentee ballots sent to him they were sent to the President's wife who is also the treasurer and running again for office.The community has no say in what he does and now once again it is a YES board to everything he does. The lawyer had refused to do anything about the tampered ballots.We are not really large community (254 homes) and of course not everyone votes. Very few people even like this man so it is a shock that he won.. We are going to try and get a recall next week.Thank you all for you input on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted December 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 at 12:33 PM Since when is "y'all think you should start over" sufficient cause to invalidate an election? Well, the election hadn't yet taken place and, If the association thinks that the electoral process had been irreparably compromised (e.g. the distribution of fraudulent ballots) I think it's free to, in effect, start over. We now learn that the ballots were returned to the wrong person, further calling the validity of election into question. So perhaps starting over might not have been a bad idea? (Note: It wasn't clear to me whether the president was sending out legitimate ballots or "counterfeit" ballots.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 13, 2013 at 01:24 PM Report Share Posted December 13, 2013 at 01:24 PM The lawyer (who like I had written before is at EVERY meeting at the presidents request and is costing the communtiy a lot of money.) Of course she justifies everything he does. The lawyer's job is to advise the society on the application of the law. Most violations of parliamentary rules (and it's not even clear this has happened) are not violations of the law. So the fact that the lawyer has not spoken up on these issues doesn't necessarily mean anything is amiss about the lawyer. Also instead of the secretary having the absentee ballots sent to him they were sent to the President's wife who is also the treasurer and running again for office. Do the bylaws specify that the ballots are sent to the secretary (or specify that the Secretary sends the ballots)? The lawyer had refused to do anything about the tampered ballots. Even if the ballots are "compromised" in some way, in that event I would agree with Edgar that the election should be redone (assuming that the ballots could have affected the result) rather than simply tossing them out. After all, the members who cast those votes didn't do anything wrong. They shouldn't be deprived of their right to vote due to the actions of the President and his wife. Well, the election hadn't yet taken place and, If the association thinks that the electoral process had been irreparably compromised (e.g. the distribution of fraudulent ballots) I think it's free to, in effect, start over. We now learn that the ballots were returned to the wrong person, further calling the validity of election into question. So perhaps starting over might not have been a bad idea? (Note: It wasn't clear to me whether the president was sending out legitimate ballots or "counterfeit" ballots.) Okay, I understand where you're coming from now. My understanding was that there was nothing wrong with the ballots themselves, but that an insert saying something to the effect of "Vote for these people" was included with the ballot. While this certainly seems inappropriate if other candidates are not afforded the same opportunity, it does not actually violate any parliamentary rule, and certainly would not be cause for invalidating the election. If there was something wrong with the ballots themselves, that may be a more serious issue. As for the "wrong person" issue, it's not yet clear whether the society's rules actually require the ballots to be sent to the Secretary. If so, then yes, we have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rlm841 Posted December 15, 2013 at 02:17 PM Author Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 at 02:17 PM Our by-laws do state: It will be the responsibility of the absentee to request his or her ballot from the secretrary. The absentee ballot must be returned to the Secretary..The President has sent absentee owner the ballot. I spoke to one owner who did not request the ballot. They sent her a hand written and the red card with their slate on it requesting herto vote for them and followed up by sending her the ballot. The other one they had sent the gentleman the whole package with the red card included. This people did not request a ballot.We do not know how many other were sent. A committe is going to an attorney on Monday to see what can be done if anything. Thanks for all the input. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted December 15, 2013 at 03:38 PM Report Share Posted December 15, 2013 at 03:38 PM Our by-laws do state: It will be the responsibility of the absentee to request his or her ballot from the secretrary. The absentee ballot must be returned to the Secretary..The President has sent absentee owner the ballot. I spoke to one owner who did not request the ballot. They sent her a hand written and the red card with their slate on it requesting herto vote for them and followed up by sending her the ballot. The other one they had sent the gentleman the whole package with the red card included. This people did not request a ballot.We do not know how many other were sent. A committe is going to an attorney on Monday to see what can be done if anything. Based on these additional facts, if the absentee votes could have affected the result, I would say the election is invalid and must be redone. Since it is unclear how many absentee votes were sent, however, this may be difficult to determine. A Point of Order may be raised at the next meeting of the membership, and an Appeal may be raised from the decision of the chair if necessary. A majority vote is required to overturn the chair's decision. As you note, there may also be legal options to pursue. Since these tend to be fairly expensive, I'd advise using the parliamentary options first, if possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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