membership dispute

[Guest diane]

How do you challenge a ruling by the chair when the chair is misinterpreting the bylaws and stating you are not a member in good standing?  The bylaws state:

Section 1. An individual active member in good standing is one whose dues are paid in full.

I have paid my dues in full, however they are using this rule to say that I am not a member until the following year since I paid my dues after September 1.

Section 4. Dues of new members joining after September 1 shall apply to the following year's

dues.

If the chairs says I'm not, but I say I am, how is this resolved?
 

[Gary Novosielski]

It is resolved by use of the motion to Appeal from the Decision of the Chair.

It requires a second, is usually debatable, and is decided right then and there by a majority vote. The question is put as "Shall the decision of the chair be sustained" and a majority No vote is required to overrule the chair. Refer to RONR § 24 for detailed rules.

But it seems obvious to me that Section 4 calls people who pay after September first "new members" not "future members" and does not say that they aren't in good standing, since their dues are paid in full, in accordance with the rule in Section 4.  The new members get four free months for being paid in full early.  Since they are clearly members, their right to vote can be abridged only by disciplinary measures.

Edited November 10, 2018 at 08:36 PM by Gary Novosielski
minor edit

[Richard Brown]

I agree with Mr. Novosielski who appears to agree with my comments in your other thread on this issue. 

For future reference, it is usually best to ask follow up questions in the same thread unless the new question is completely unrelated to the initial question.  In your case, they are directly related, but people who read this thread and haven't read the other thread will likely be lost because most of the key information is provided in the other thread. 

Edited to add:  Here is a link to Guest Diane's earlier thread which provides the background:  https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/32802-4th-quarter-membership-enrollment/

 

Edited November 10, 2018 at 03:54 AM by Richard Brown
Added link to previous thread

[Guest DIANE]

What if the chair doesn't recognize me to make the appeal?

[Chris Harrison]

35 minutes ago, Guest DIANE said:

What if the chair doesn't recognize me to make the appeal?

Have an ally make the Appeal for you and hopefully you will have enough friends to overturn the Chair's ruling.

Edited November 10, 2018 at 04:25 PM by Chris Harrison

[Atul Kapur]

41 minutes ago, Guest DIANE said:

What if the chair doesn't recognize me to make the appeal?

This is one of the occasions where you don't need to wait to be recognized. Immediately after the Chair makes the ruling, you rise and say "I appeal from the decision of the chair."
RONR, 11th ed, p. 259, ll. 19-21.

Remember, however, that this needs a second and, to overturn the Chair's decision, a majority must vote against the decision. So you may want to talk to your friends ahead of time to test your arguments and gauge the support you will receive (and to build the support) and to pre-arrange a seconder.

[Joshua Katz]

3 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

This is one of the occasions where you don't need to wait to be recognized. Immediately after the Chair makes the ruling, you rise and say "I appeal from the decision of the chair."

I disagree (although it is one of those occasions). The ruling of the chair stands until overruled by a majority, so prior to the deciding of an appeal, the OP is not a member, in accordance with the chair's ruling, and cannot move to appeal - and certainly shouldn't be interrupting the meeting.

[Guest Zev]

Curiosity question.

What has been the club's procedure regarding dues if a member joins say on August 1 instead of September 1?

In many organizations an individual is made a member by way of a vote by the assembly to a motion that "so-and-so be admitted as a member" or some other similar words. What actually takes place in this organization that would tell me that an individual was accepted?

Also, am I to believe that all those that join this organization in the last three months of the calendar year must wait until January 1 before becoming full-fledged members? Why not pro-rate the dues and make them members right now?

[Richard Brown]

1 hour ago, Guest Zev said:

Also, am I to believe that all those that join this organization in the last three months of the calendar year must wait until January 1 before becoming full-fledged members? Why not pro-rate the dues and make them members right now?

I believe it is gust Diane's position, as well as the position of at least two or three of us who have responded in this thread and the other thread, that members who join between September 1st and January 1st are indeed members from the date they join and pay the required dues, even though the dues are for the coming year. It seems to me they are members from the moment they join but are simply not being charged dues for the last 4 months of the year.

The question is, when do members who join between September 1st and December 31st actually become members? Also, how to appeal a ruling of the chair that such a person is not yet a member in good standing.

[Joshua Katz]

I agree that it makes no sense to think that those who join in August are immediately members, but no one can join in September or October without waiting. I could see there being one or two points during the year when new members are accepted, but accepting them immediately at any time except during a 3 month period doesn't seem like a viable interpretation on this bylaw.

My previous comment was not on the merits, just on how to appeal.

[Guest Diane]

Guest Zev - In the past, members have been accepted once dues are paid. There is no "voting in" of new members.

Good point about pro-rating the dues for the last months of the year. There is no such stipulation in the bylaws which is why I interpret it to mean that those last months are a "bonus" if you will, 4 free months of membership. Most people would wait until January to join and pay if they only got 4 months of membership for their dues. It is also a bit of an enticement to get people involved during the political season in October and November as this is a political organization.

Thank you!

[Guest Zev]

Mr. Novosielski has indicated one method of dealing with this. Normally the ruling and the assembly's decision are recorded in the minutes and in a side document of precedents attached to the bylaws. However, in this case the chairman has apparently decided to issue a ruling contrary to possibly decades-long precedent. My suggestion is that you take Mr. Huynh's advice and get a friend that is recognized as a member to submit a bylaw amendment that would clarify the status of post-September 1 new members. The only other alternative I can think of is to get someone to talk to the chairman and see if he is willing to reverse his ruling.

[Guest Diane]

Guest Zev - In the past, members have been accepted once dues are paid. There is no "voting in" of new members.

Good point about pro-rating the dues for the last months of the year. There is no such stipulation in the bylaws which is why I interpret it to mean that those last months are a "bonus" if you will, 4 free months of membership. Most people would wait until January to join and pay if they only got 4 months of membership for their dues. It is also a bit of an enticement to get people involved during the political season in October and November as this is a political organization.

Thank you!

[Richard Brown]

Guest Diane, I am going to throw a bit of a monkey wrench into things.  I am  familiar with several Republican Women's clubs and have been an associate member of one.  My wife is currently a member of one.  It is my understanding, at least with the Louisiana clubs, that a portion  of the dues you pay to the local club is sent to the state and national associations and that a person is not considered a member until the required dues portion is forwarded to the state and national organizations.  I have been told that different clubs handle this "end of the year" joining differently, but that the clubs my Republican women  friends are members of or familiar with  don't consider  a person a member until the state/national dues have been paid.  In Louisiana, I  believe that is $18.  I have been told that some clubs waive their own club dues for members joining late in the year, but that in order to be an official "member in good standing with voting rights", the state and national dues must be paid and that there is no waiver provision for that.  I think some clubs waive their own dues near the end of the year, but require payment of the portion going to state and national if the new member wants to have voting rights prior to the start of the new year.

So, you might check the bylaws of your parent state and national organizations for more information on whether payment of dues to those "parent" organizations is a prerequisite for membership in a local club.  And check the rest of your own local bylaws for such a provision.

Ultimately, as I believe we have already said, it is up  to your own club to interpret its bylaws and to sustain or overturn the ruling of the chair if there is an appeal of his ruling. 

My opinion as a parliamentarian, based solely on your own bylaw provisions which you have provided, remains  that you are a member and should have the right to vote.  However, that opinion is somewhat conditional and is contingent on whether there are any superior rules (such as state and national bylaws) which have a bearing on the issue... or some other provision on point in another section of your own bylaws.

Edited to add: See my next post for an update

Edited November 12, 2018 at 08:38 AM by Richard Brown
Added last paragraph

[Richard Brown]

Guest Diane, I have reviewed the current bylaws of the NFRW (National Federation of Republican Women) and do not see anything that changes my earlier opinion that you are a full member of your local unit/club with full voting rights from the moment you join by by submitting your application and the dues required at the time you submit your application.  I have also reviewed recent, but not current, bylaws of our Louisiana Federation of Republican Women and see nothing there, either, to change my opinion. 

I see nothing in either sets of bylaws that makes payment of dues to the national and state federations a prerequisite for membership in a local club.  Rather, it seems to be a duty of the local clubs to pay a portion of your dues over to the state and national organizations in order for the local clubs to maintain their own good standing.  I don't see where payment of those dues has anything to do with your status as a member of your local club.  Since I do not know what state you live in, I have not reviewed your state bylaws unless it happens to be Louisiana.

So, based on the information I seen, it remains my opinion that you are a full member of your local club from the moment you submit your application and pay the dues required at the time you submit your application.  But, if you want to be assured that you can vote at your upcoming elections, you might ask if it will satisfy the powers that be if you pay either a pro-rata portion (or even the full amount) of your local dues for the remainder of the year and/or the portion of your dues that would normally go to your state and national organizations for the remainder of this year.  It seems that the local clubs are all over the ball park on how they handle this issue.  The issue really is up to a ruling of the chair and then of the assembly if the president's decision is appealed.  It might be better to resolve it amicably rather than to force the issue.  That is a decision you have to make. 

btw, I agree with whoever it was who said that it might be best for another member to make make the appeal on your behalf if the president rules against you because, as of the moment of that ruling,  you are likely deemed not a full member in good standing.  Also, I wouldn't be surprised if they try to claim that "you are a member but one that doesn't yet have voting rights" even though your bylaws make no provision for such a quasi-member.

Good luck!