Recording a vote in the minutes

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

I have a question about recording votes taken by raising hands, should the number be included? Or just the disposition of the motion.  Is it dependent upon whether the Chair includes the number in announcing the vote (which is not done consistently?)  On every substantive motion the Chair always asks if a roll call vote is requested before proceeding to the raised hands method.

[Guest Zev]

1 hour ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

I have a question about recording votes taken by raising hands, should the number be included?

If the assembly approved a vote to count the ayes and nays then the answer would be yes.

1 hour ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Or just the disposition of the motion.

If no motion to count the vote was approved then the minutes can say something to effect that "...on a show of hands the ayes prevailed."

1 hour ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Is it dependent upon whether the Chair includes the number in announcing the vote (which is not done consistently?)

The chair being in doubt as to the result of the vote can take a rising vote and even count those in favor and against.

1 hour ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

On every substantive motion the Chair always asks if a roll call vote is requested before proceeding to the raised hands method.

This question slows things down a little bit and is not really necessary. About roll calls, the book says

Quote

It is usually confined to representative bodies, where the proceedings are published, since it enables constituents to know how their representatives voted on certain measures. It should not be used in a mass meeting or in any assembly whose members are not responsible to a constituency.

on page 420.

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

Thank you that is helpful and in line with what I thought. The fact that the chair counted for his own benefit in order to announce the vote is not relevant as it was not ordered by the body.

[Joshua Katz]

3 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

This question slows things down a little bit and is not really necessary. About roll calls, the book says

Quote

It is possible that this organization has a bylaw requiring a roll call vote on all substantive motions, and the chair is really asking, in a round-about away, if there is unanimous consent to suspend that rule as it is clearly in the nature of a rule of order.

[Richard Brown]

7 hours ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

I have a question about recording votes taken by raising hands, should the number be included? Or just the disposition of the motion.  Is it dependent upon whether the Chair includes the number in announcing the vote (which is not done consistently?)  On every substantive motion the Chair always asks if a roll call vote is requested before proceeding to the raised hands method.

Caryn Ann, unless a counted vote has been ordered, RONR provides on page 469 that the minutes should reflect only whether the motion was adopted or failed.  Whether the vote was taken by a voice vote, rising vote or show of hands is irrelevant. I believe whether the chair announced the numbers in his count is also irrelevant, with the one possible exception noted below.

The only two times that RONR says that the minutes should include the vote count are when a count has been ordered and when the vote is by ballot.  Here is the pertinent language on page 470:

"When a count has been ordered or the vote is by ballot, the number of votes on each side should be entered; and when the voting is by roll call, the names of those voting on each side and those answering "Present" should be entered. If members fail to respond on a roll-call vote, enough of their names should be recorded as present to [page 471] reflect that a quorum was present at the time of the vote. If the chair voted, no special mention of this fact is made in the minutes."

What RONR is not clear on, at least to me, is whether it makes any difference whether the counted vote was ordered by the assembly or by the chair.  It seems clear that if the counted vote is ordered by the assembly, the count should be included in the minutes.  However, RONR says in several places that when the chair is in doubt, he "the chair" may order a counted vote.  Whether this has the same effect, at least for inclusion of the vote count in the minutes as a counted vote ordered by the assembly is not clear.  Although I see no problem with doing it either way, I would personally be inclined to err on the side of caution and include the results of any counted votes ordered by the chair as a counted vote in the minutes.  The chair did "order" it, so I think I come down on the side of saying that it is a count that was ordered.  An "ordered vote" is an ordered vote regardless of who ordered it.  Hopefully, the 12th edition of RONR will clarify that issue.  It's an easy enough issue to clarify.  In the meantime, it seems that is largely within the discretion of the secretary and the assembly.  I think you can establish a written rule or a custom either way.  The society is ultimately in control of what goes into its minutes.

On a related issue, I don't recall any clear guidance in RONR as to whether the fact that a motion was adopted by a two thirds vote, such as a motion to rescind something previously adopted without notice, should be noted in the minutes as having been adopted by a two thirds vote.  If it is in RONR, I do not recall it.  My own opinion is that if the chair states that "the motion, having achieved a two thirds vote, is adopted" could and perhaps should be included in the minutes.  Such inclusion makes it harder for someone to later claim that it failed to receive the required two thirds vote.  If I am mistaken.... and I haven't researched it this morning... will be happy to be corrected.  But, before anyone says anything, I do agree that there is no requirement for the two thirds vote to be included in the minutes, but i also don't see it as a mortal or even a venal sin to include it.   When the minutes are up for approval, the statement that the motion was adopted by a two thirds vote can certainly be amended to strike "by a two thirds vote".

btw, I do not believe the mere fact that the chair includes the vote count in his announcement means that the count should be in the minutes.  One purpose of the chair stating the vote count is so that other members, who question the accuracy of his count, may move for the vote to be counted by another method, such as a rising counted vote or a roll call vote or a vote by ballot.  His stating his "count" does not mean it should automatically be included in the minutes.  If your organization wants to do that, it should adopt a special rule of order to that effect.

[Caryn Ann Harlos]

Thank you everyone.  I plan on asking the body if they wish that for the future - I prefer more information to less if that is what they want in this regard.  But it will seem odd (IMHO) for the minutes to include the counts on some and not all, and I guess I will just ask for the count each time for the record.

 

[jstackpo]

Or, if you want to make life easier for your tellers, and secretary, propose to include a count only when so ordered by vote - as RONR has it.

[Guest Who's Coming to Dinner]

2 hours ago, Caryn Ann Harlos said:

Thank you everyone.  I plan on asking the body if they wish that for the future - I prefer more information to less if that is what they want in this regard.  But it will seem odd (IMHO) for the minutes to include the counts on some and not all, and I guess I will just ask for the count each time for the record.

I fear it would be a waste of time just to satisfy your sense of symmetry. Counting votes takes time and should be reserved for occasions when the vote is close or the requirement is more than a majority.

[jstackpo]

23 minutes ago, Guest Who's Coming to Dinner said:

occasions when the vote is close or the requirement is more than a majority.

Or the assembly orders a counted vote, for whatever reason.  Page 283ff.