Difference between Admin Rules and Rules affirmatively passed unanimously.

[Annette Erkan]

Hello,

What steps are taken when the board implements rules they discussed and decided to make an administrative rule.  Are there restrictions? What are the restrictions if any?  How are they documented?

When a member requests that a rule be created for any given issue and it is discussed, voted on, then it passes unanimously or by more than 2/3's of the membership,  is that rule considered valid? Where is it documented if required?  Does it automatically become an Administrative Rule?  If not, what is it called and where is it supposed to be documented other than the minutes? 

An administrative rule is created by the Board of managers.  For example: according to the ICPA the Board is required to collect all assessments.  The Board has the right to implement a more detailed collection process.  i.e. date due, amount of late penalty, grace period, ect. ect.

Edited March 17, 2019 at 07:06 PM by Annette Erkan
Answered a request for more details.

[Guest Zev]

Annette: Please return and explain what an "administrative rule" is. I have never heard of such a thing.

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

The "hierarchy of rules" in Robert's Rules is: Corporate Charter, Constitution/Bylaws, Rules of Order (both a parliamentary authority and special rules of order that have been adopted that take precedence over the parliamentary authority), Standing Rules, and Customs (RONR pp. 10-19). Organizations sometimes don't use those terms for their rules, in which case we need to figure out what kind of rules you are talking about in order to answer questions about how they may be adopted or altered, and where they exist.

All of that said, it sounds as though you are talking about what I would call "policies" - and in particular, a policy internal to the board (the particulars of how it will collect assessments in your example), vs. a policy adopted by the members (that the board be given the responsibility to collect assessments. The latter of these two should be included in your bylaws, or in some sort of collection of policies such as an operations manual. since a board "has only such power as is delegated to it by the bylaws or by vote of the society's assembly referring individual matters to it" (RONR pg. 482, ll. 27-29). 

RONR goes on to say that a board "may adopt its own special rules of order or standing rules only to the extent that such rules do not conflict with any of the rules of the society" (RONR pg. 486, ll. 17-19). Such rules, if they have continuing effect, should also be kept in some sort of document. 

Regarding any required advanced notice before adopting or amending such rules, you should check your bylaws (particularly for bylaw amendments. Generally, such amendment require advanced notice and a two thirds vote. Special rules of order and standing rules sometimes have different standards, and are generally easier to adopt or amend than bylaws.

So again, you may need to give us more specific information about your areas of concern.

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Greg Goodwiller said:

a policy adopted by the members (that the board be given the responsibility to collect assessments. The latter of these two should be included in your bylaws, or in some sort of collection of policies such as an operations manual.

I assume you are defining "included in" as "separate from but published/printed together with"

Otherwise it could be interpreted as you saying this type of policy should be a provision in the bylaws. Which I don't think you mean to say.

[Shmuel Gerber]

3 hours ago, Annette Erkan said:

The Board has the right to implement a more detailed collection process.  i.e. date due, amount of late penalty, grace period, ect. ect.

 

2 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

2 hours ago, Greg Goodwiller said:

a policy adopted by the members (that the board be given the responsibility to collect assessments. The latter of these two should be included in your bylaws, or in some sort of collection of policies such as an operations manual.

I assume you are defining "included in" as "separate from but published/printed together with"

Otherwise it could be interpreted as you saying this type of policy should be a provision in the bylaws. Which I don't think you mean to say.

Well, if that's what he meant, I think he'd be right -- it would be appropriate for rules regarding the due date, amount of late penalty, and grace period for assessments to be specified in the bylaws.

[Shmuel Gerber]

2 hours ago, Greg Goodwiller said:

Regarding any required advanced notice before adopting or amending such rules, you should check your bylaws (particularly for bylaw amendments. Generally, such amendment require advanced notice and a two thirds vote.

You mean "advance notice," which RONR calls "previous notice," which is actually the only kind of notice of a motion there is. 

[Atul Kapur]

53 minutes ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

 

Well, if that's what he meant, I think he'd be right -- it would be appropriate for rules regarding the due date, amount of late penalty, and grace period for assessments to be specified in the bylaws.

Trying to clarify "appropriate". Are you saying that, if the bylaws state that the Board is to collect all assessments (as per the OP), then these rules must be in the bylaws rather than as rules / policies adopted by the membership? Or should be in the bylaws?

[Shmuel Gerber]

34 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

Trying to clarify "appropriate". Are you saying that, if the bylaws state that the Board is to collect all assessments (as per the OP), then these rules must be in the bylaws rather than as rules / policies adopted by the membership? Or should be in the bylaws?

I think that either the rules regarding the due date, amount of late penalty, and grace period for assessments must be included in the bylaws, or the bylaws must specifically empower the board to adopt such rules. A rule in the bylaws that merely empowers the board to collect assessments does not give the board the authority to impose late penalties or to allow grace periods for bylaws-imposed penalties.

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

Sorry if I inadvertently stirred something up. Regarding "advanced notice," I certainly meant "previous notice." I was just writing with the awareness that the original post was by someone who is not familiar with our terminology, and was trying to say it in a way she might better understand it. Apologies.

[Annette Erkan]

6 hours ago, Greg Goodwiller said:

The "hierarchy of rules" in Robert's Rules is: Corporate Charter, Constitution/Bylaws, Rules of Order (both a parliamentary authority and special rules of order that have been adopted that take precedence over the parliamentary authority), Standing Rules, and Customs (RONR pp. 10-19). Organizations sometimes don't use those terms for their rules, in which case we need to figure out what kind of rules you are talking about in order to answer questions about how they may be adopted or altered, and where they exist.

All of that said, it sounds as though you are talking about what I would call "policies" - and in particular, a policy internal to the board (the particulars of how it will collect assessments in your example), vs. a policy adopted by the members (that the board be given the responsibility to collect assessments. The latter of these two should be included in your bylaws, or in some sort of collection of policies such as an operations manual. since a board "has only such power as is delegated to it by the bylaws or by vote of the society's assembly referring individual matters to it" (RONR pg. 482, ll. 27-29). 

RONR goes on to say that a board "may adopt its own special rules of order or standing rules only to the extent that such rules do not conflict with any of the rules of the society" (RONR pg. 486, ll. 17-19). Such rules, if they have continuing effect, should also be kept in some sort of document. 

Regarding any required advanced notice before adopting or amending such rules, you should check your bylaws (particularly for bylaw amendments. Generally, such amendment require advanced notice and a two thirds vote. Special rules of order and standing rules sometimes have different standards, and are generally easier to adopt or amend than bylaws.

So again, you may need to give us more specific information about your areas of concern.

What is a Corporate Charter? The only terms I am familiar with is the ICPA, By-Laws, Declarations, administrative rules and our courtesy rules.  What is the hierarchy 

 I am on the Board of Managers of a Condominium Association.  I'm not sure but I think the ICPA Illinois Condominium Property Act considers the operating policies as administrative rules.  But that is not my sole problem.  My problem is a rule was established long before I acquired my condo (I have been an owner for 22 years), and we have had no issues or problems from any owner in that time adhering to that rule.   The policy is that only owner members are allowed to attend meetings.  If a member can't attend they will have to send back the invite with another member as their proxy.  I have only been on the board since 2013.  A real estate agent had purchased a unit solely for investment purposes.  She violated many ICPA rules during the purchase of the condo.  We had a meeting on August 31,  2014 three years before she purchased her condo where an issue was brought up about members who don't show up to meetings will be charged $50 for not showing up or not sending a proper proxy.  The vote was unanimous 9 out of the 12 unit owners were represented.  This new owner (her closing was on april 18, 2017) initially sent the invite back with her tenant as her  proxy.  I had informed her that she couldn't have her tenant as a proxy.  She said she was out of town.  I offered her to call me to discuss her concerns and the meetings agenda.  She refused.  I had informed her of the penalty.  She still didn't show or change her proxy. Now she has been having her attorney constantly harass me over the $50 penalty.  In my opinion, I would rather pay the $50 penalty instead of the $250 an hour charge for attorney's fees.  But that's me. Just saying. I have enclosed the attorney's letter with my letter requesting payment for her penalty  Thank you. very much in advance for your help.

PROXY VIOLATION atty letter.pdf

NO SHOW NO PROXY VIOLATION.pdf

[Joshua Katz]

6 minutes ago, Annette Erkan said:

What is a Corporate Charter?

A corporate charter is relevant only in the case of a corporation. If you don't have one, it's likely because your organization is not incorporated (or it could be because you do have one, but it's sitting in a desk drawer somewhere and no one knows about it). In any case, it's a document issued by a state creating a corporation, i.e. an entity treated by the law as existing separately from its members.

 

7 minutes ago, Annette Erkan said:

The only terms I am familiar with is the ICPA, By-Laws, Declarations, administrative rules and our courtesy rules.  What is the hierarchy 

Hard to say. Any procedural rules in the ICPA will take precedence  (so far as parliamentary procedure is concerned), followed by your bylaws. As for declarations, administrative rules, and courtesy rules, the best we can really do at this point is guess as to what they correspond to in RONR. My guess (which is all it is) is that they are standing rules. A better way to figure it out, though, is to look at your bylaws. Do they say anything about these other rules?

Regarding the remainder of the post: these sound more like legal than parliamentary issues. 

[Shmuel Gerber]

1 hour ago, Joshua Katz said:

As for declarations, administrative rules, and courtesy rules, the best we can really do at this point is guess as to what they correspond to in RONR.

Declarations are high-level legal documents that are attached to the property, a.k.a. a master deed.

You may be interested in these articles by Jim Slaughter:

http://www.jimslaughter.com/Community-Associations-and-the-Parliamentarian.cfm

http://www.jimslaughter.com/Community-Association-Statutes-and-Procedures-.cfm

[Joshua Katz]

Thank you.

[Gary Novosielski]

2 hours ago, Greg Goodwiller said:

Sorry if I inadvertently stirred something up. Regarding "advanced notice," I certainly meant "previous notice." I was just writing with the awareness that the original post was by someone who is not familiar with our terminology, and was trying to say it in a way she might better understand it. Apologies.

I think the distinction being drawn was between "advanced" and "advance" notice

[Atul Kapur]

4 hours ago, Shmuel Gerber said:

I think that either the rules regarding the due date, amount of late penalty, and grace period for assessments must be included in the bylaws, or the bylaws must specifically empower the board to adopt such rules. A rule in the bylaws that merely empowers the board to collect assessments does not give the board the authority to impose late penalties or to allow grace periods for bylaws-imposed penalties.

I read the OP to say that the membership was adopting these rules. Does the same apply in that case, rather than the board adopting them? I guess I'm asking if the membership can adopt these as policies (to be executed by the board) or if they must still be in the bylaws.

9 hours ago, Annette Erkan said:

member requests that a rule be created for any given issue and it is discussed, voted on, then it passes unanimously or by more than 2/3's of the membership,  is that rule considered valid?

 

[Annette Erkan]

Thank you for all your help.  I do believe I will have to contact an attorney.  I was just wondering if I had done everything correctly according to all governing documents before I sought legal counsel.  I will follow through with all your advice.

[Josh Martin]

11 hours ago, Annette Erkan said:

We had a meeting on August 31,  2014 three years before she purchased her condo where an issue was brought up about members who don't show up to meetings will be charged $50 for not showing up or not sending a proper proxy. 

This policy is not valid unless such fines are authorized by the bylaws.

”Members cannot be assessed any additional payment aside from from their dues unless it is provided for in the bylaws.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 572)

“Punishments that a society can impose generally fall under the headings of censure,*(130) fine (if authorized in the bylaws), suspension, or expulsion.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 643)