Bylaw vs Special Rule of Order

[Tomm]

Our Board seems to have many rules in their Bylaws that I suspect should actually be Special Rules of Order. Here's some examples: (RONR is the parliamentary authority)

The Boards Bylaws requires a Main Motion to be read and approved at 3 consecutive meetings before it's considered passed. Isn't this a Special Rule of Order?

The Board Bylaws also include a method of waiving the 3 readings for an emergency or immediate implementation. Shouldn't that be done by simply Suspending the Rules of the 3 reading requirement? Should that be another Special Rule of Order or is it something that shouldn't even be mentioned in the Bylaws because a motion to Suspend the Rules could eliminate the 3 readings and is a part of the normal rules that can be found in RONR?

Allowing non-members who are attending the Boards open meetings to make comments? Bylaw or Special Rule of Order?

Thanks

 

[Dan Honemann]

33 minutes ago, Tomm said:

The Boards Bylaws requires a Main Motion to be read and approved at 3 consecutive meetings before it's considered passed. Isn't this a Special Rule of Order?

No; it's a bylaw provision in the nature of a rule of order.

33 minutes ago, Tomm said:

The Board Bylaws also include a method of waiving the 3 readings for an emergency or immediate implementation. Shouldn't that be done by simply Suspending the Rules of the 3 reading requirement? Should that be another Special Rule of Order or is it something that shouldn't even be mentioned in the Bylaws because a motion to Suspend the Rules could eliminate the 3 readings and is a part of the normal rules that can be found in RONR?

This three-readings rule appears to be a rule protecting absentees, and hence is a rule which cannot be suspended. Inclusion of a provision in the bylaws of a method of waiving the 3 readings for an emergency or immediate implementation appears to be a good idea.

 

33 minutes ago, Tomm said:

Allowing non-members who are attending the Boards open meetings to make comments? Bylaw or Special Rule of Order?

Bylaw. Every rule in the bylaws is a bylaw. This provision is not a bylaw in the nature of a rule of order and cannot be suspended. It is a rule conferring rights on nonmembers. 

[Guest Puzzling]

36 minutes ago, Tomm said:

Our Board seems to have many rules in their Bylaws that I suspect should actually be Special Rules of Order. Here's some examples: (RONR is the parliamentary authority)

The Boards Bylaws requires a Main Motion to be read and approved at 3 consecutive meetings before it's considered passed. Isn't this a Special Rule of Order?

The Board Bylaws also include a method of waiving the 3 readings for an emergency or immediate implementation. Shouldn't that be done by simply Suspending the Rules of the 3 reading requirement? Should that be another Special Rule of Order or is it something that shouldn't even be mentioned in the Bylaws because a motion to Suspend the Rules could eliminate the 3 readings and is a part of the normal rules that can be found in RONR?

Allowing non-members who are attending the Boards open meetings to make comments? Bylaw or Special Rule of Order?

Thanks

 

The first question I have:

You are talking about their bylaws do you mean

A) bylaws adopted by the board to regulate their meetings?

Or  do you mean

B) bylaws adopted by the membership to regulate the board meetings?

If You mean A then see:

https://robertsrules.forumflash.com/topic/36618-boards-own-special-rules-of-order/?tab=comments#comment-218310

In practice it does not make much difference if rules of order are in the bylaws or in a list of special rules of order, (0nly rules in the bylaws have a bit more standing and are less easy to amend or suspend) 

Rule of thumb could be  some rules of order have to be in the bylaws (quorum, officers and their elections, boards and  standing committees, changing the bylaws and so on)

also if it is about  rights of some group of members it should be in the bylaws, (for example rights of absentee members, member-not-board-members at board meetings )

Other rules of order can be in special rules of order or in the bylaws depending on custom.

Also do not mix special rules of order with standing rules

Keep visiting more replies will surely follow

 

[Tomm]

These are the corporate bylaws. The "Meetings of the Board" portion is where the three reading and other variations I mentioned were listed.

This is the portion of RONR I just can't wrap my head around! The way I interpret RONR (which is obviously wrong) is that Robert's Rules specifies the basic set of guiding rules. Any alteration of those rules that have already been established in RONR becomes a Special Rule of Order!?!? Another words, if you can't find the rule you want or the way you want use it in the text of RONR then you create a Special Rule of Order!?!?

Standing Rules is another issue that confuses me, but I believe to be more in the order of when the meetings may start or you must turn off your cell phone. They don't really have anything to do with the way the meeting is administered, they're more of a creature comfort thing?. 

[Tomm]

I mean if RONR says you only require one vote to pass a motion but now you make a rule to supersede that so that you require 3 consecutive votes, why isn't that a Special Rule of Order?

Why is allowing non-members to comment when they are not part of the assembly not a Special Rule of Order when RONR says otherwise?

[Dan Honemann]

22 minutes ago, Tomm said:

I mean if RONR says you only require one vote to pass a motion but now you make a rule to supersede that so that you require 3 consecutive votes, why isn't that a Special Rule of Order?

It is, unless you place it in your bylaws, in which event it becomes a bylaw. I say again "Every rule in the bylaws is a bylaw." That ought to be easy enough to understand. 

By the way, does this rule in your bylaws actually require "3 consecutive votes"?

[Tomm]

Yes it does! "Motions made in Board meetings, excluding Executive and Special Sessions, shall be read and passed a minimum of three times before finalized and acted upon unless readings are waived by a two-thirds (2/3) majority of the Board (6)."

The hard part to understand is what is and what isn't a Special Rule of Order. I understand that if it's in the Bylaws it's a Bylaw, but does, or did, it really belong there in the first place? 

I tend to view RONR as a box of basic rules. If you want to accomplish something using rules outside that box but it still accomplishes the same result (i.e. the passage of a motion) it's a Special Rule of Order!

[Guest Puzzling]

Maybe the easiest way to think of it:

It is a rule of order if the rule is about the methods and procedures in   deliberative meetings.

Rules of order can be found in the bylaws ,constitution, in RONR, in state laws, special rules of order, precedents, customs. (And maybe other places)

Special rules or order are those rules of order that are not in (state) laws, constitutions bylaws or RONR, 

Special rules of order are those rules adopted by the membership, and are written down, (but not in the bylaws) they have precedence over RONR and customs. And have a lower precedence than  state(laws) constitution and bylaws.

Don't make to much of the difference between a bylaw of order and a special rule of order besides that the bylaws is in the bylaws and because of that have precedence.

By the way 

57 minutes ago, Tomm said:

Motions made in Board meetings, excluding Executive and Special Sessions, shall be read and passed a minimum of three times before finalized and acted upon unless readings are waived by a two-thirds (2/3) majority of the Board (6)."

Does mean the motion needs to be voted (passed) on 3 times in 3 meetings , I presume the bylaws also give more details and I guess the first pass is normally by unanimous consent. (It is more what RONR calls a previous notice,  than a debate on the merits of the motion) 

 

 

[Tomm]

38 minutes ago, Guest Puzzling said:

Does mean the motion needs to be voted (passed) on 3 times in 3 meetings , I presume the bylaws also give more details and I guess the first pass is normally by unanimous consent. (It is more what RONR calls a previous notice,  than a debate on the merits of the motion) 

"At least seven (7) days prior to all Board meetings, excluding Executive and Special Sessions, an agenda, subject to amendment, shall be posted in XXXX Facilities and/or on the XXXX website (www.xxxx.org). Motions made in Board meetings, excluding Executive and Special Sessions, shall be read and passed a minimum of three times before finalized and acted upon unless readings are waived by a two-thirds (2/3) majority of the Board (6)."

[Dan Honemann]

11 minutes ago, Tomm said:

"At least seven (7) days prior to all Board meetings, excluding Executive and Special Sessions, an agenda, subject to amendment, shall be posted in XXXX Facilities and/or on the XXXX website (www.xxxx.org). Motions made in Board meetings, excluding Executive and Special Sessions, shall be read and passed a minimum of three times before finalized and acted upon unless readings are waived by a two-thirds (2/3) majority of the Board (6)."

Well, it's in your bylaws so you will have to live with it. If I were you, I think I would be inclined to hold all board meetings in either executive or special session.  🙂

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Tomm said:

Motions made in Board meetings, excluding Executive and Special Sessions, shall be read and passed a minimum of three times before finalized and acted upon unless readings are waived by a two-thirds (2/3) majority of the Board (6)

That must make it a challenge to ever take a recess during the meetings

[Joshua Katz]

On 4/4/2021 at 3:26 PM, Tomm said:

I tend to view RONR as a box of basic rules. If you want to accomplish something using rules outside that box but it still accomplishes the same result (i.e. the passage of a motion) it's a Special Rule of Order!

I'm not seeing the difficulty here. But maybe this will help: take what you said and drop the caps. If you want a different rule, you want a special rule of order. Where do you put it? The logical place is in the Special Rules of Order, uppercase. What happens if you put it, instead, in a higher-ranking document? Then it is still a special rule of order, and still has effect, and still can be suspended. Why? Because it's a special rule of order. Or, more to the point, because RONR says so, and you've adopted it as a parliamentary authority, and have no rule saying otherwise.

What if you put it in a lower-ranking document, such as your standing rules? Then it will not be effective, because when there is a conflict, RONR will win. 

[Tomm]

On 4/4/2021 at 3:42 PM, Atul Kapur said:

That must make it a challenge to ever take a recess during the meetings

That's because most of the Board members don't understand RONR. They really mean only the Main Motions that are listed on the agenda.

Some even want to amend the Bylaw that defines RONR as their parliamentary authority because they screw-up the meetings by allowing to many amendments to the main motions and nobody knows enough to call a point of order! This last time the Chair worked the Main Motion back down from a Tertiary amendment to the approval of the Primary amendment but never voted on the Main motion!!!! They want the Bylaw to say RONR "may" be.... instead of "shall" be the parliamentary authority. I'm trying to convince them to simply write special rules of order to override the rules they don't like, but of course they need to understand RONR in the first place in order for them to know what they don't like! So.....let's just throw the baby out with the bathwater!

[Gary Novosielski]

On 4/4/2021 at 2:09 PM, Tomm said:

I mean if RONR says you only require one vote to pass a motion but now you make a rule to supersede that so that you require 3 consecutive votes, why isn't that a Special Rule of Order?

Why is allowing non-members to comment when they are not part of the assembly not a Special Rule of Order when RONR says otherwise?

You can allow non-members to comment (but not in debate¹) by a majority vote at any meeting without any rule.  If you want to make it a rule, then you can pass it as a Special Rule of Order, and it becomes one.  Or you can write it in the bylaws, and it becomes a bylaw. 

__________
¹ Although the rule against non-members speaking in debate is suspendible.

Edited April 6, 2021 at 12:09 AM by Gary Novosielski