Appeal at General Membership meeting

[Tomm]

I think I read somewhere that at a General Membership, or similar meeting, that's chaired by the president of the board of directors, the members can "appeal the decision of the chair" three times, and if the members still haven't received the decision to their satisfaction, the members can make a motion put it to a vote. 

Is that correct or just wishful thinking?

[J. J.]

Yes, it there can be two reasonable opinions on the issue and if the appeal is seconded.  See 62:5-9.  See also "Putting the Motion from the Floor," National Parliamentarian, 2nd Quarter, 2012.

[Atul Kapur]

Well, not quite. If the appeal is ignored after being made and seconded three times, then the member making the appeal can put the appeal to a vote. RONR (12th ed.) 62:9

If the chair's decision is sustained, the member doesn't get to appeal again and again just because they "haven't received the decision to their satisfaction"

If the appeal is not allowed or not in order (62:9n3) then the chair must announce that, but this is not the same as ignoring it.

And, it doesn't matter who is the presiding officer.

[Tomm]

27 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

If the chair's decision is sustained, the member doesn't get to appeal again and again just because they "haven't received the decision to their satisfaction"

We might be in a situation at our next General Membership meeting, (which will be chaired by the president of the board) where the Members want to reverse a decision made by the board. We fear the chair will somehow try to stop the motion to which we would appeal. Is there a way to force a vote to go to the membership 

[Guest Zev]

What is wrong with gaining the floor and just moving a motion with the words that "... the decision so-and-so by the board is hereby repealed..." or something to that effect?

[Tomm]

13 minutes ago, Guest Zev said:

What is wrong with gaining the floor and just moving a motion with the words that "... the decision so-and-so by the board is hereby repealed..." or something to that effect?

We fear that the chair will say that since the decision was made by, and at a meeting (executive session) of the board it's out of order.

We totally understand that the board is subordinate to the Membership and even the Articles of Incorporation says if there's a difference of opinion the decisions of the Members shall prevail, but reversing the board's decision will really put egg on their face and we fear they will simply double-down and not allow the motion!

The board is not very knowledgeable of RONR which is part of the problem because they don't comply with the rules, and 99% of the General Membership is just as ignorant so it will be easy for the chair to simply feed the Membership a line of BS and the Membership will fold like a cheap suit!

Just trying to learn what options are available for a hostile chairman!    

[Guest Zev]

The thing that bothers me about this thread is that the real question may have something to do with the nature of the act performed by the board. I get the impression that the board performed this act in executive session under the mistaken notion that by doing so the decision would be kept secret from all except the actual board members. When people are not forthcoming I get suspicious. I could be completely wrong about this and the whole issue could just be a disagreement about the powers of the board. If no motion is allowed to either countermand or investigate this matter, then what that means is that the board is superior to the assembly and that the general membership cannot do anything about it. I hope that I am just imagining things and that the real situation is a far more innocent one. Nevertheless, exercising caution and getting to the bottom of this would go a long way toward relief that nothing nasty is taking place that would put the organization in peril.

[Josh Martin]

12 hours ago, Tomm said:

I think I read somewhere that at a General Membership, or similar meeting, that's chaired by the president of the board of directors, the members can "appeal the decision of the chair" three times, and if the members still haven't received the decision to their satisfaction, the members can make a motion put it to a vote. 

Is that correct or just wishful thinking?

One appeal is sufficient to put the question to a vote of the membership. Although it should be noted that an appeal should be concerned with whether the chair's decision is a correct interpretation of the rules, not simply whether it is to the "satisfaction" of the membership.

8 hours ago, Tomm said:

We might be in a situation at our next General Membership meeting, (which will be chaired by the president of the board) where the Members want to reverse a decision made by the board. We fear the chair will somehow try to stop the motion to which we would appeal. Is there a way to force a vote to go to the membership 

Yes, that's what the appeal does. An appeal places the question in the hands of the membership. The membership is who an appeal is made to. The chair doesn't rule on the appeal of his own decision. That would be rather silly.

8 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

What is wrong with gaining the floor and just moving a motion with the words that "... the decision so-and-so by the board is hereby repealed..." or something to that effect?

It appears to be believed that the chair will rule such a motion out of order. As previously noted, however, this decision may be appealed from.

7 hours ago, Tomm said:

We fear that the chair will say that since the decision was made by, and at a meeting (executive session) of the board it's out of order.

There is nothing in RONR which suggests that the fact that a motion was considered in executive session means the motion cannot be repealed by the membership, although it may well make things difficult as a practical matter.

The question as to whether the motion is in order will depend on whether the bylaws grant the board exclusive authority in this area.

27 minutes ago, Guest Zev said:

If no motion is allowed to either countermand or investigate this matter, then what that means is that the board is superior to the assembly and that the general membership cannot do anything about it.

Does it? It may simply mean that the chair and the board incorrectly believes that to be the case.

[Tomm]

2 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

The thing that bothers me about this thread is that the real question may have something to do with the nature of the act performed by the board.

The board called a special meeting and dismissed another board member. There was no mention of the purpose/business that was to be transacted in that meeting, simply a time and place and we, the Members, understand that because of that, that meeting was null and void... never happened! (RONR 9:13, 9:15)

There's nothing the Articles or Bylaws that would indicate the board is superior to the Membership. The Articles, however, do say that if there's a disagreement in a decision the Membership will prevail, which tells me the Membership has upper hand!

We fear that a motion that the dismissal of the director be remanded will be called out of order!

2 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

Yes, that's what the appeal does. An appeal places the question in the hands of the membership. The membership is who an appeal is made to. The chair doesn't rule on the appeal of his own decision. That would be rather silly.

I'll have to read up on that!!! I thought the chair made the ruling?

So if I appeal the decision of the chair and get a second, it automatically goes to the Membership for a vote and not the chair?

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Tomm said:

We fear that a motion that the dismissal of the director be remanded will be called out of order!

As I recall, you were given advice on another thread recommending that the motion should not be to "remand" the dismissal (I believe you mean "rescind") but rather a motion along the lines that it was null and void.

1 hour ago, Tomm said:

We fear that a motion that the dismissal of the director be remanded will be called out of order!

...

I thought the chair made the ruling?

So if I appeal the decision of the chair and get a second, it automatically goes to the Membership for a vote and not the chair?

Well, you have to have a ruling to appeal from. So, yes, the chair makes a ruling (aka decision).

The steps are: 

• You make your motion (whatever the motion specifically says).
• The chair may rule it out of order.
• If so, then you appeal from that ruling of the chair. 
• If the appeal is seconded, then it can be debated and voted by membership.

[Tomm]

 

3 hours ago, Atul Kapur said:

As I recall, you were given advice on another thread recommending that the motion should not be to "remand" the dismissal (I believe you mean "rescind") but rather a motion along the lines that it was null and void.

Of course you are correct. Guest Zev said, "your dismissal of director so-and-so is null and void and hereby countermanded." 

[Josh Martin]

On 8/24/2021 at 9:18 AM, Tomm said:

I'll have to read up on that!!! I thought the chair made the ruling?

The chair already made a ruling by ruling the motion out of order. That's what you're appealing from.

On 8/24/2021 at 9:18 AM, Tomm said:

So if I appeal the decision of the chair and get a second, it automatically goes to the Membership for a vote and not the chair?

Yes, that's correct.

[Richard Brown]

@Tomm Appeals from the ruling of the chair are discussed at length in section 24 of the 12th edition of RONR. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 8/23/2021 at 6:54 PM, Tomm said:

I think I read somewhere that at a General Membership, or similar meeting, that's chaired by the president of the board of directors, the members can "appeal the decision of the chair" three times, and if the members still haven't received the decision to their satisfaction, the members can make a motion put it to a vote. 

Is that correct or just wishful thinking?

In the meeting of any assembly, any decision of the chair may be Appealed from. 

Minor nitpick: the Membership meeting is chaired by the president of the society, not the president of the board of directors, although this is very often the same person.

An appeal must be seconded, and then may be debated under special rules.  The chair may speak in debate first, and last; other members may speak only once on the issue.  It only takes one appeal, not three, to put the matter to a vote.  When debate is concluded including the chair speaking a second time if desired, the matter is put to a vote as "Shall the decision of the chair stand as the decision of the assembly?"  It requires a majority in the negative to overrule the chair.

Appeals are covered in RONR (12th ed.) §24.