Special Rule of Order

[Tomm]

If the Bylaws state that Member Comments will be allowed at meetings of the Board, is it still necessary to establish a special rule of order and special agenda?

[Richard Brown]

On 3/13/2022 at 9:27 PM, Tomm said:

If the Bylaws state that Member Comments will be allowed at meetings of the Board, is it still necessary to establish a special rule of order and special agenda?

I do not think it is NECESSARY to adopt one or more special rules of order concerning member comments at board meetings, but there’s certainly nothing wrong with it and it is probably advisable. For example, the society might want to impose a time limit on the length of said speeches. You might also want to specify at what point in the meeting these member comments are permitted.

I do not understand what you mean by establishing a “special agenda“. However, if you do use an agenda, there should probably be a place on it for member comments. If you do not use an agenda, the organization might adopt its own individualized order of business to include member comments at an appropriate point in board meetings.
 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/13/2022 at 10:27 PM, Tomm said:

If the Bylaws state that Member Comments will be allowed at meetings of the Board, is it still necessary to establish a special rule of order and special agenda?

No it is not necessary.

Edited to add:

The Bylaws provision is all that is necessary to allow member comments.  However, you may wish to establish additional rules covering how long a member may speak, which topics are considered germane or not, what total time is to be allotted to member comments, at what point in the meeting member comments will be heard, and so on.

Edited March 14, 2022 at 02:17 PM by Gary Novosielski
Add additional material.

[Tomm]

On 3/14/2022 at 6:31 AM, Richard Brown said:

 

I do not understand what you mean by establishing a “special agenda“

Only to the point that it would not be RONR standard order of business!

[Bruce Lages]

RONR in fact provides for optional headings within the standard order of business (41:28), one of which is referenced as Good of the Order, General Good and Welfare, or Open Forum (41:34). This would encompass exactly what you are asking about - i.e., member comments - and therefore does not require establishing a special agenda.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:40 AM, Bruce Lages said:

RONR in fact provides for optional headings within the standard order of business (41:28), one of which is referenced as Good of the Order, General Good and Welfare, or Open Forum (41:34). This would encompass exactly what you are asking about - i.e., member comments - and therefore does not require establishing a special agenda.

That's true, but in many cases where a Board is hearing comments from the Membership, or the public, the intent of the comments is to influence Board action during that meeting, so hearing comments at the beginning of the meeting is more in keeping with that goal.  Good of the Order is typically included at the end of a meeting.   I have been on boards that include comments at both the beginning and the end of each meeting.

[Tomm]

But would that heading be required to be placed on an agenda or does the chair simply call for comments at the mention of an Open Forum?

I would think that depending on when those comments were applicable they should be asked for at a specific time...hence...listed on an agenda?

[Atul Kapur]

On 3/14/2022 at 10:40 AM, Bruce Lages said:

RONR in fact provides for optional headings within the standard order of business (41:28), one of which is referenced as Good of the Order, General Good and Welfare, or Open Forum (41:34). This would encompass exactly what you are asking about - i.e., member comments - and therefore does not require establishing a special agenda.

 

As I read the OP, Tomm is asking about members of the organization who are not members of the board being allowed to make comments at a board meeting. Is that how you are interpreting 41:34? Because I have never read this as providing the opportunity for non-members of the body that is meeting to make comments.

[Tomm]

Yes. The member comment section relates to non board members commenting at a meeting of the board.

[Bruce Lages]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:44 PM, Atul Kapur said:

 

As I read the OP, Tomm is asking about members of the organization who are not members of the board being allowed to make comments at a board meeting. Is that how you are interpreting 41:34? Because I have never read this as providing the opportunity for non-members of the body that is meeting to make comments.

Yes, at least to a certain extent. I think of the phrase 'Open Forum' as encompassinges a broad spectrum of possibilities, including the situation Tomm has asked about, i.e., members of the organization raising issues of concern to the board at board meetings. I interpreted the original issue, stated as "member comments will be allowed at board meetings" in this light, as a defined period in which members could raise issues of concern for the board to consider, rather than a situation  in which the non-board members would, in effect, be participating in debate. That scenario would indeed require a special rule of order.

[Atul Kapur]

I may not disagree with this in the context of a bylaws requirement for  non-board members to be able to comment at a board meeting, as in the OP's situation.

However, without that, it appears very clear that the mention of "members" in 41:34 refers only to members of the body that is meeting.

[Tomm]

On 3/14/2022 at 12:19 PM, Bruce Lages said:

Yes, at least to a certain extent. I think of the phrase 'Open Forum' as encompassinges a broad spectrum of possibilities, including the situation Tomm has asked about, i.e., members of the organization raising issues of concern to the board at board meetings. I interpreted the original issue, stated as "member comments will be allowed at board meetings" in this light, as a defined period in which members could raise issues of concern for the board to consider, rather than a situation  in which the non-board members would, in effect, be participating in debate. That scenario would indeed require a special rule of order.

So if I'm understanding you correctly, to allow non-board members to participate in debate at a board meeting it would require a special rule of order, which I can understand. But if the "Member comments will be allowed at board meetings" is mentioned only in the bylaws, then does that require a special rule of order that creates an agenda that allots the time and place within the board meeting that would allow for those member comments to be made? 

If it's only stated in the bylaws then without a customized agenda/special rule of order, how else will the time for member comments to be known?

[Josh Martin]

On 3/14/2022 at 4:18 PM, Tomm said:

So if I'm understanding you correctly, to allow non-board members to participate in debate at a board meeting it would require a special rule of order, which I can understand. But if the "Member comments will be allowed at board meetings" is mentioned only in the bylaws, then does that require a special rule of order that creates an agenda that allots the time and place within the board meeting that would allow for those member comments to be made? 

If it's only stated in the bylaws then without a customized agenda/special rule of order, how else will the time for member comments to be known?

If the organization's bylaws provide that "Member Comments will be allowed at meetings of the Board," then the board will have to provide for member comments in some fashion. Certainly some ways to do this would be to adopt a special order of business, an agenda, and/or a special rule of order. I concur with Mr. Brown that it is likely desirable to do one or more of these things, since such methods will provide some certainty to members (and the board) regarding at what time member comments shall be taken. I don't know that I would go so far as to say that these are the only ways to fulfill the requirement.

How has the board handled this matter in the past?

Edited March 15, 2022 at 12:42 AM by Josh Martin

[Tomm]

On 3/14/2022 at 5:41 PM, Josh Martin said:

How has the board handled this matter in the past?

There use to be two locations on the agenda, one was before any of the motions were debated and the other was at the end of the meeting.

The agenda use to be approved at the beginning of the meeting but they have since stopped approving the agenda and removed the member comment section, however the Bylaws still state that there will be time allotted for Member comments.

I suppose the board now believes they are functioning under RONR standard Order of Business and that's why they no longer feel they need too approve the agenda, however, it seems that they are now in violation of their own Bylaws? 

[Josh Martin]

On 3/14/2022 at 7:53 PM, Tomm said:

There use to be two locations on the agenda, one was before any of the motions were debated and the other was at the end of the meeting.

The agenda use to be approved at the beginning of the meeting but they have since stopped approving the agenda and removed the member comment section, however the Bylaws still state that there will be time allotted for Member comments.

I suppose the board now believes they are functioning under RONR standard Order of Business and that's why they no longer feel they need too approve the agenda, however, it seems that they are now in violation of their own Bylaws? 

Just to be clear, are you saying the board no longer permits Member Comments? Or is the board now handling Member Comments in some other manner?

I concur that if the board is not permitting time for Member Comments, it is not in compliance with the rule in the bylaws.

[Tomm]

On 3/14/2022 at 5:56 PM, Josh Martin said:

Just to be clear, are you saying the board no longer permits Member Comments? Or is the board now handling Member Comments in some other manner?

Well...at this mornings meeting they amended the Bylaws which now will state that the Members can only comment on motions that are listed on the agenda! The Bylaws still say that the agenda can be amended which means to me that a brand new motion can be presented under New Business and since it wasn't listed on the agenda the Members will not be allowed to comment? But I guess that's gonna have to be the way it goes and the Members will be shut out of making any comments on those new motions.

This whole issue is kinda in a state of flux and I guess we'll just have to wait to see what happens.