Subsequent Instructions

[DrEntropy]

RONR 12th 13:22 states that an assembly can, by majority vote, give a committee 'subsequent instructions'.   It seems that by this means you can instruct a committee to report on a motion referred to it at a time sooner than originally planned.   This seems like a loophole to get around the 2/3 vote (or majority with previous notice) requirement of discharging a committee ? Or perhaps it is not in order to  give instructions to a committee to report at the same meeting that the instructions are given?  

 

[Richard Brown]

On 10/20/2022 at 5:45 PM, DrEntropy said:

RONR 12th 13:22 states that an assembly can, by majority vote, give a committee 'subsequent instructions'.   It seems that by this means you can instruct a committee to report on a motion referred to it at a time sooner than originally planned.   This seems like a loophole to get around the 2/3 vote (or majority with previous notice) requirement of discharging a committee ? Or perhaps it is not in order to  give instructions to a committee to report at the same meeting that the instructions are given?  

 

I think that’s a very good question. When I read section 13:22 in conjunction with 13:8(d) and also the very last paragraph of 13.8, it appears that perhaps the committee can be given additional instructions as a subsequent meeting by majority vote but not instructions which conflict with or alter instructions previously given.  13:22 does seem to conflict with 13:8(d) and the last paragraph of 13:8 which is right below it.

I am interested in seeing what our colleagues have to say about this.
 

[Josh Martin]

On 10/20/2022 at 5:45 PM, DrEntropy said:

RONR 12th 13:22 states that an assembly can, by majority vote, give a committee 'subsequent instructions'.   It seems that by this means you can instruct a committee to report on a motion referred to it at a time sooner than originally planned.   This seems like a loophole to get around the 2/3 vote (or majority with previous notice) requirement of discharging a committee ? Or perhaps it is not in order to  give instructions to a committee to report at the same meeting that the instructions are given?  

The rules for Discharge a Committee address this question.

"Instead of discharging the committee, the assembly can instruct it to report at a reasonable specified time. A motion to do this can be moved as a substitute (see 12) for a pending motion to Discharge a Committee, or it can be introduced as an incidental main motion when no question is pending. If no instruction as to time of reporting has been given previously, this motion requires only a majority vote for adoption. If it changes a previously specified reporting time before that time has arrived, however, the vote required is the same as for the motion to Discharge a Committee." RONR (12th ed.) 36:7

[DrEntropy]

On 10/20/2022 at 6:54 PM, Josh Martin said:

The rules for Discharge a Committee address this question.

 RONR (12th ed.) 36:7

Ah! Well spotted,  thank you very much.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 10/20/2022 at 9:54 PM, Josh Martin said:

The rules for Discharge a Committee address this question.

"Instead of discharging the committee, the assembly can instruct it to report at a reasonable specified time. A motion to do this can be moved as a substitute (see 12) for a pending motion to Discharge a Committee, or it can be introduced as an incidental main motion when no question is pending. If no instruction as to time of reporting has been given previously, this motion requires only a majority vote for adoption. If it changes a previously specified reporting time before that time has arrived, however, the vote required is the same as for the motion to Discharge a Committee." RONR (12th ed.) 36:7

II hadn't noticed it before, but that means that even extending the reporting time would require the higher threshold.  I was misremembering it differently.

[Bruce Lages]

On 10/20/2022 at 6:45 PM, DrEntropy said:

RONR 12th 13:22 states that an assembly can, by majority vote, give a committee 'subsequent instructions'.   It seems that by this means you can instruct a committee to report on a motion referred to it at a time sooner than originally planned.   This seems like a loophole to get around the 2/3 vote (or majority with previous notice) requirement of discharging a committee ? Or perhaps it is not in order to  give instructions to a committee to report at the same meeting that the instructions are given?  

 

At first I didn't understand the suggested connection between giving a committee additional instructions and using that motion to discharge the committee. After all, giving the committee additional instructions just results in the committee continuing its work, but under somewhat different conditions. It is not, and was never intended to be a cheaper, majority-vote-only means of discharging the committee. But I see now that the last sentence provides the necessary clue - it implies that the committee could be discharged by giving it the additional instruction to, in effect, present its final report at this time,  thus resulting in its automatic discharge immediately afterwards.

Mr. Martin has already made it clear that a majority vote will not be sufficient here if the committee was given instructions previously to report at a different time. But regardless of the vote required, I wonder if in this scenario the chair has the ability to dispose of such a motion directly, perhaps by asking "Is the committee ready to present its final report?", and if the answer is "No, we are not", then ruling the motion not in order or dilatory.

If that is not an option for the chair, I would hope that the assembly would realize that an attempt to discharge the committee by this means would be a major imposition on, and rather disrespectful to, the committee and its members, and vote it down.

[Josh Martin]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:26 AM, Bruce Lages said:

At first I didn't understand the suggested connection between giving a committee additional instructions and using that motion to discharge the committee. After all, giving the committee additional instructions just results in the committee continuing its work, but under somewhat different conditions. It is not, and was never intended to be a cheaper, majority-vote-only means of discharging the committee. But I see now that the last sentence provides the necessary clue - it implies that the committee could be discharged by giving it the additional instruction to, in effect, present its final report at this time,  thus resulting in its automatic discharge immediately afterwards.

Mr. Martin has already made it clear that a majority vote will not be sufficient here if the committee was given instructions previously to report at a different time. But regardless of the vote required, I wonder if in this scenario the chair has the ability to dispose of such a motion directly, perhaps by asking "Is the committee ready to present its final report?", and if the answer is "No, we are not", then ruling the motion not in order or dilatory.

If that is not an option for the chair, I would hope that the assembly would realize that an attempt to discharge the committee by this means would be a major imposition on, and rather disrespectful to, the committee and its members, and vote it down.

I am in agreement that a "further instruction" for a committee to report immediately is properly in the nature of a motion to Discharge a Committee and would follow the rules for that motion, whether or not the assembly has previously given instructions on when the committee shall report.

I do not think this conflicts with 36:7. The rule provides that "Instead of discharging the committee, the assembly can instruct it to report at a reasonable specified time." The rule clearly contemplates a situation in which the assembly instructs the committee to report at some time in the future.