Amending a unapproved agenda

[Tomm]

I understand that agenda's don't necessarily need to be voted on and approved. And I understand that they then become not much more than a "when-to-do" list of items.

Questions:

1. What's the proper time and method to ask to amend an unapproved agenda?

2. If it wasn't voted on to be approved in the first place, does it need to be voted on to make a change?

Example: If there are 5 motions listed on the unapproved agenda and your motion is listed as number 5 and behind several controversial motions, but you want to move it to number 2 and before those motions are presented. 

[Joshua Katz]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:56 AM, Tomm said:

I understand that agenda's don't necessarily need to be voted on and approved.

From where do you understand this?

On 9/24/2023 at 11:56 AM, Tomm said:

1. What's the proper time and method to ask to amend an unapproved agenda?

 

The phrase "unapproved agenda" only makes sense at the start of a meeting, when the agenda is pending for adoption. If you have decided not to adopt an agenda, it is just a piece of paper. I have no idea how you'd amend it.

On 9/24/2023 at 11:56 AM, Tomm said:

2. If it wasn't voted on to be approved in the first place, does it need to be voted on to make a change?

 

Who knows?

On 9/24/2023 at 11:56 AM, Tomm said:

Example: If there are 5 motions listed on the unapproved agenda and your motion is listed as number 5 and behind several controversial motions, but you want to move it to number 2 and before those motions are presented. 

Move to lay the others on the table. Or just make your motion. There's no agenda saying not to.

Edited September 24, 2023 at 06:17 PM by Joshua Katz
Added a sentence

[Tomm]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:17 AM, Joshua Katz said:

From where do you understand this?

41:60 suggests that agenda's are normally not made when meetings are held on a regular frequent basis.

41:61 implies that agendas aren't always adopted.

These, I believe, assume that the organization is using the standard orders of the day format?

On 9/24/2023 at 11:17 AM, Joshua Katz said:

Move to lay the others on the table. Or just make your motion. There's no agenda saying not to.

And the proper time to this is when? At the time when the first controversial motion is made or earlier in the meeting?

[Joshua Katz]

On 9/24/2023 at 2:55 PM, Tomm said:

41:60 suggests that agenda's are normally not made when meetings are held on a regular frequent basis.

 

That is correct. But that's not the same as having one and not voting on it.

On 9/24/2023 at 2:55 PM, Tomm said:

These, I believe, assume that the organization is using the standard orders of the day format?

On 9/24/2023 at 2:17 PM, Joshua Katz said:

If there is no agenda, the organization would follow RONR's standard order of business, yes. But I object to the idea that someone can make a list of business items, not have the assembly approve it, and somehow have it bind the hands of the assembly.

On 9/24/2023 at 2:55 PM, Tomm said:

And the proper time to this is when? At the time when the first controversial motion is made or earlier in the meeting?

When new business is in order (assuming the motion you want to make is new business). If you want it taken up before the other items, you should move quickly enough to do so. If you miss your chance, and the other motion has been made, you can move to lay it on the table in order to take up this one first, assuming there is some reason you want it taken up in that order. It's one of the few in-order uses of lay on the table.

But the point remains - the fact that someone has a piece of paper in his pocket showing the other items first means nothing. It's not an agenda, it's a piece of paper, and your motion is in order whenever new business is in order.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/24/2023 at 11:56 AM, Tomm said:

Questions:

1. What's the proper time and method to ask to amend an unapproved agenda?

2. If it wasn't voted on to be approved in the first place, does it need to be voted on to make a change?

1.  If the adoption of an agenda is pending at the start of a meeting, you do not ask to amend it, you simply move to amend it.  Before adoption, only a majority vote is needed.

2. If an agenda was never adopted for a meeting, it is not binding.  There is no need to vote on any changes.  The entire document can simply be ignored.

[Josh Martin]

On 9/24/2023 at 10:56 AM, Tomm said:

1. What's the proper time and method to ask to amend an unapproved agenda?

I think it would be helpful to lay out exactly what this "unapproved agenda" looks like and in what manner, exactly, it is desired to "amend" it.

It would also be helpful to clarify:

• Whether the assembly has adopted a special order of business.
• Whether the assembly meets at least as frequently as quarterly.

The answers to these questions may affect the answer. But generally, I would advise reviewing RONR (12th ed.) 41:37-57. And Sections 14 and 17.

On 9/24/2023 at 10:56 AM, Tomm said:

2. If it wasn't voted on to be approved in the first place, does it need to be voted on to make a change?

It depends on whether the change will conflict with the standard order of business, a special order of business adopted by the assembly, or in some other manner conflict with the assembly's previous orders (e.g. an order of the day set for a particular time).

If so, then yes.

If not, then no.

On 9/24/2023 at 10:56 AM, Tomm said:

Example: If there are 5 motions listed on the unapproved agenda and your motion is listed as number 5 and behind several controversial motions, but you want to move it to number 2 and before those motions are presented. 

Where do these five motions "listed on the unapproved agenda" come from? Are they unfinished business? Have they in some other manner been made orders of the day? Or not?

If these items have not been made orders of the day, then the order listed on the unapproved agenda is irrelevant, and it's first-come, first-serve under New Business. If you want a motion to be taken up first, try to move it first. If someone beats you to it, and another motion becomes pending, you could move to Postpone Definitely or Lay on the Table. (Although this can only be used on one motion at a time.)

If the motions are orders of the day, and they are listed in the proper order, then you could move to Suspend the Rules. Or, once again, you could move to Postpone Definitely or Lay on the Table. (Although this can only be used on one motion at a time.)

On 9/24/2023 at 4:10 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

2. If an agenda was never adopted for a meeting, it is not binding.  There is no need to vote on any changes.  The entire document can simply be ignored.

It's not necessarily correct that the document can simply be ignored.

"In some organizations, it is customary to send each member, in advance of a meeting, an order of business or agenda, with some indication of the matters to be considered under each heading. Such an agenda is often provided for information only, with no intention or practice of submitting it for adoption. Unless a precirculated agenda is formally adopted at the session to which it applies, it is not binding as to detail or order of consideration, other than as it lists preexisting orders of the day (41:40ff.) or conforms to the standard order of business (3:16, 41:5ff.) or an order of business prescribed by the rules of the organization (2:16, 3:16)." RONR (12th ed.) 41:62

Certainly, if the "agenda" simply lists items which have not previously been made orders of the day, then it may be ignored.

But the agenda may well list some items which are orders of the day, or are otherwise consistent with the standard order of business or a special order of business adopted by the assembly. Those items cannot simply be ignored.

Edited September 24, 2023 at 09:40 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 9/24/2023 at 5:39 PM, Josh Martin said:

But the agenda may well list some items which are orders of the day. Those items cannot simply be ignored.

Yes, I did not intend to imply otherwise.  While the agenda itself is not binding as an agenda, that does not affect any rules regarding individual items that may be orders of the day; those must be carried out as usual.

Even though the fact that they were listed on a random piece of paper may be ignored, the items themselves may not.

[Tomm]

On 9/24/2023 at 2:39 PM, Josh Martin said:

I think it would be helpful to lay out exactly what this "unapproved agenda" looks like and in what manner, exactly, it is desired to "amend" it.

• Call to Order

• Pledge of Allegiance

• Welcome and Introductions

• Roll Call of Voting Members, Confirmation of Quorum

• Approval of Minutes

• Treasurer’s Report

• Management Report

• Recreation Center Update Report – Acting General Manager

• Committee Recommendations

It then list the many motions that will be presented by the directors.

As you know, our organization requires a motion must be voted on and passed at two consecutive meetings so I'm kinda believing that after the first vote is taken the second vote on the motion becomes a special order of business? And there is a motion on the agenda that will be coming up for its second vote!

The sad part is, if I look at some of the agendas from earlier in the year, they change! Sometimes they call to approve the agenda and sometimes they don't. Sometimes they call for Committee reports and sometimes they don't!  

[Josh Martin]

On 9/24/2023 at 5:17 PM, Tomm said:

As you know, our organization requires a motion must be voted on and passed at two consecutive meetings so I'm kinda believing that after the first vote is taken the second vote on the motion becomes a special order of business? And there is a motion on the agenda that will be coming up for its second vote!

I'm not certain about a special order. I think it would be a general order. But certainly it is in some manner an order of the day for the second meeting.

They should be listed in the order in which they were made general orders - that is, listed in the same order they were considered at the prior meeting.

If it is desired to take up a matter out of its proper order, you could move to Suspend the Rules. Or you could move to Postpone Definitely or Lay on the Table. (Although this can only be used on one motion at a time.)

[Joshua Katz]

On 9/24/2023 at 5:39 PM, Josh Martin said:

But the agenda may well list some items which are orders of the day, or are otherwise consistent with the standard order of business or a special order of business adopted by the assembly. Those items cannot simply be ignored.

 I would say that those items cannot be ignored, but the paper on which they are written can. If the paper didn't exist, those items would still come up at their appropriate times.