Are motions typically on an agenda?

[Catharine Littlefield]

This question refers to the County Committee of a Political Party.  An inexperienced, but well-intentioned, County Chairman, newly elected, has instituted a policy that any item for the agenda must be sent in ten days in advance of the meeting.  His procedure during his six-month tenure has been to have the committee approve the agenda, though everyone on the committee is equally unfamiliar with the rules, and they go along with everything.  Again, no bad motives suspected.

I am a precinct president, not the Executive Committeeman from our precinct, so I can neither speak, nor vote at meetings.  My concern is that the elected Officers are issuing dictates, mostly procedural, rather than having the Executive Committee discuss and enact procedures.  Rules clearly say Exec. Committee runs county party. (see below)

My initial thinking was that it was not necessary to put a motion on the agenda, but that it would do not harm to observe their requested 10-day-in-advance submission; so, we put a planned motion on the agenda three days early - not in specific terms, but the general topic, which was "Members and the Rules."  What ensued was a three-day argument with the person who submitted it.  They wanted more detail and were finally told it was a motion to form a rules and bylaws committee, but not the text of the motion.  Ultimately, the member was told her motion would not be heard "because we already had rules."

That is when I realized that the submission for agenda was really desired so that the Officers could control the agenda by filtering out what they did not want to discuss.

I realized then, that advance notice was not to the benefit of those who want to have a motion discussed on the floor.

When the group of us who think having this committee would be beneficial found it would not be on the agenda, we decided that the motion could still be made by an executive committeeman.  We had a mover and a seconder lined up.

I don't need to waste time on the specifics, but the motion was not made at the meeting.

Subsequently, there was an Open Meeting where I could speak, and when the chairman told someone that the motion they were describing (a different one) had to be submitted for the agenda before the next business meeting, I was recognized and gave my opinion that any executive committeeman could make a motion - that being on the agenda was not required.

Great vitriol was immediately unleashed upon me!

Was I wrong, or right?  Does the chairman have the right to decide in advance what motions he feels like hearing?

 

I need clarification on Agenda and Motions.  Please!!

 

*********************************************

 

Operative arrangement described in The Rules as follows:

"

(1) The precincts in each county shall be held together and operated under the control of a County Executive Committee, which shall consist of one (1) committeeman from each precinct elected by the precinct. The county executive committee, when elected, shall by majority vote elect its own officers, except those who were elected by the county convention per party rules. Appointed officers need not be executive committeemen. An officer of the County Executive Committee who is not an executive committeeman shall not be entitled to vote on any question. The county chairman may vote only in case of a tie vote.

(2) The state executive committeeman from the county shall also be an officer of the County Executive Committee and shall be entitled to vote on any question.

 

The officers that were elected at the county convention are:  Chairman, Vice-Chairman, Secretary, Treasurer, State Executive Committeeman (representative from County to sit on state executive committee.

***

And from the explanatory manual that accomapnies The Rules:

The County Executive Committee serves an extremely important role in the operation of the Party. After all, it is the County Executive Committee that conducts the affairs of the Party closest to the "grassroots."

The County Executive Committee is responsible for the most visible of all organizational and campaign activities: voter registration, membership recruitment, yard signs, phone banks, door-to-door, event hosting, literature drops, GOTV, poll worker and poll watchers recruitment / training, etc.

Structure of the County Executive Committee

The County Executive Committee consists of one voting representative per organized precinct and the county elected committee officers.

County Committeeman. Each precinct within the county is entitled to one county committeeman on the County Executive Committee. This member is elected at meetings for a two (2) year term during precinct reorganization. Precinct members must live within the precinct that they represent (which means the position is vacated when a member moves to a different precinct).

County Committee has no bylaws, so comes under the State Rules.  Anything not covered by state Rules is governed By RONR.

[Joshua Katz]

None of what you've described is correct procedure, or appropriate.

On 10/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Catharine Littlefield said:

An inexperienced, but well-intentioned, County Chairman, newly elected, has instituted a policy that any item for the agenda must be sent in ten days in advance of the meeting. 

The agenda is adopted at the meeting. When it is pending for adoption, it may be amended. He can make any rules he likes for his draft agenda, but it's just a piece of paper until adopted by the assembly, at which point the assembly can add anything it wants to consider.

 

On 10/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Catharine Littlefield said:

My initial thinking was that it was not necessary to put a motion on the agenda, but that it would do not harm to observe their requested 10-day-in-advance submission; so, we put a planned motion on the agenda three days early - not in specific terms, but the general topic, which was "Members and the Rules." 

This confuses me. Who is "we"? As I understand it, you are not a member of the board (it is common for the board of a political party to be called the "committee") in question. Who submitted the motion?

On 10/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Catharine Littlefield said:

What ensued was a three-day argument with the person who submitted it.  They wanted more detail and were finally told it was a motion to form a rules and bylaws committee, but not the text of the motion.

It is perfectly proper to put an item of business on the agenda but not the wording of the motion to be made.

On 10/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Catharine Littlefield said:

That is when I realized that the submission for agenda was really desired so that the Officers could control the agenda by filtering out what they did not want to discuss.

 

Sounds to me like this organization needs new officers.

On 10/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Catharine Littlefield said:

Subsequently, there was an Open Meeting where I could speak, and when the chairman told someone that the motion they were describing (a different one) had to be submitted for the agenda before the next business meeting, I was recognized and gave my opinion that any executive committeeman could make a motion - that being on the agenda was not required.

 

New business may be moved without being on the agenda in many ways. The agenda can be amended. The rules can be suspended. Or it can be made prior to adjournment when all business is concluded.

Also, how often does this body meet? RONR recommends that organizations meeting quarterly or more frequently not use agendas at all.

On 10/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Catharine Littlefield said:

Great vitriol was immediately unleashed upon me!

 

You were right, but even if you were wrong, "great vitriol" is out of place at a meeting. If your presiding officer allows great vitriol to be unleashed during meetings, you need a new presiding officer.

On 10/29/2023 at 3:44 PM, Catharine Littlefield said:

Does the chairman have the right to decide in advance what motions he feels like hearing?

Of course not.

But there has been a great anti-democratic tendency in this country as of late, and RONR prescribes rules for conducting meetings as democratically as possible, so sometimes that is a tension. Following the rules is not to the liking of some people when it interferes with their power, particularly politicians.

[Catharine Littlefield]

When I say "we" I am speaking of about ten members (from various precincts) who are concerned the rules are not being followed.  We meet separately to discuss ways to get this group on a healthy, growing track.  We believe the most constructive first step is to commit to following the rules.  We decided that rather than taking a more confrontational approach, we should have a rules and bylaws committee.  Hopes were it could 1) start incrementally educating everyone (including the officers) as to the rules (especially how meetings are run under RONR.)  and 2) We also thought they could start crafting some simple procedural bylaws that could save a lot of time  after ReOrg, which happens every two years.

This particular motion was written by this group.  The largest precinct was in favor of it by a majority.  We then agreed on who would put it on the agenda, who would make the motion and who would second it.  We also discussed the best arguments for debate, but, alas, the motion did not get made.

But this is the first time in at least fifteen years that this county has properly organized by first organizing the precincts.  That is why almost everyone involved knows nothing about how it works.  The committeemen do not even understand their own powers.

Edited October 29, 2023 at 08:46 PM by Catharine Littlefield

[Gary Novosielski]

On 10/29/2023 at 4:45 PM, Catharine Littlefield said:

But this is the first time in at least fifteen years that this county has properly organized by first organizing the precincts.  That is why almost everyone involved knows nothing about how it works.  The committeemen do not even understand their own powers.

It would be amusing to see such chaos at a small dog club, but the implications of a political party with little interest in democracy is troubling.

[Joshua Katz]

On 10/30/2023 at 2:55 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

It would be amusing to see such chaos at a small dog club, but the implications of a political party with little interest in democracy is troubling.

Oh.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 10/30/2023 at 6:55 PM, Joshua Katz said:

Oh.

Well it was that or bite my tongue.

[Shmuel Gerber]

 

On 10/29/2023 at 3:56 PM, Joshua Katz said:

But there has been a great anti-democratic tendency in this country as of late, and RONR prescribes rules for conducting meetings as democratically as possible, so sometimes that is a tension. Following the rules is not to the liking of some people when it interferes with their power, particularly politicians.

Well, at least at the national level, I think there is still great respect shown for following the rules of order. For example, when a Democratic congressman recently wanted to interrupt a vote that wouldn't go his way, he knew better than to make a ruckus on the floor of the House. Instead, he pulled a fire alarm outside the chamber. 

[Richard Brown]

@Catharine Littlefield Joshua Katz correctly answered your questions based on the rules in RONR (Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 12th edition).  However, those rules may or may not be applicable to your organization and might be only partially applicable.  It depends on several factors, primarily whether your organization has formally adopted RONR as its parliamentary authority and also on what the rules of your "parent body" (the state party?) say.  You said your county organization (county committee) does not have bylaws, but must follow the "state rules".  It is therefore very important to know what the "state rules" contain.  (I do note that you said that your state rules dictate that RONR controls in areas where the state rules are silent.  That is quite likely binding on your county committee).

Here is one example:  You stated that your county chairman now requires that proposed agenda items be submitted to him ten days in advance of a meeting.  Apparently, he, or some unidentified group of people, decides what is and is not permissible for the agenda.  Mr. Katz pointed out the proper way of handling an agenda, if one is to be used, per the rules in RONR.  However, we don't know what rules are in your state rules that might dictate the agenda procedure.  It might be quite different from the procedures in RONR.  It might also be that your county executive committee has adopted special rules of order that you don't know about.   Such rules would supersede the rules in RONR.

In short, we really need a lot more information in order to properly advise you.  You have so many issues that it might serve you well to consult with a professional or experienced parliamentarian who can review all of the issued issues and relevant rules and advise you as to how to proceed.

Edited November 3, 2023 at 04:21 PM by Richard Brown
typographical correction in the last sentence.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 10/30/2023 at 10:08 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

 

Well, at least at the national level, I think there is still great respect shown for following the rules of order. For example, when a Democratic congressman recently wanted to interrupt a vote that wouldn't go his way, he knew better than to make a ruckus on the floor of the House. Instead, he pulled a fire alarm outside the chamber. 

Pity the 1/6 mob didn't think of that.

[Catharine Littlefield]

Yes, RONR is officially recognized as the authority for all issues not covered by State Rules.  This would include essentially everything regarding the conduct of meetings.

[Wright Stuff]

On 11/2/2023 at 5:20 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Pity the 1/6 mob didn't think of that.

I thought and hoped this forum was above partisan politics. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 12/19/2023 at 9:14 AM, Wright Stuff said:

I thought and hoped this forum was above partisan politics. 

Debating over what the minimum wage should be is partisan politics.

Attempting a coup d'état is well beyond the boundaries of politics altogether.

Just sayin'.

Edited December 19, 2023 at 09:08 PM by Gary Novosielski