Withdrawing a motion

[Guest Janet]

Once a motion has been made and seconded, can the person making the motion withdraw it before a vote has been taken?

[Rob Elsman]

Before the chair has stated the question, the maker can withdraw his motion without permission.  Once the question has been stated, the motion is in the possession of the assembly, and there is an incidental motion, Request to Withdraw a Motion, by which the maker can ask permission to withdraw his motion.  This motion requires a second (if the incidental motion is not made by the maker of the motion proposed to be withdrawn, the second must be provided by that latter's maker) and a majority vote for adoption.  See RONR (12th ed.) 33:11-19.

[Richard Brown]

On 11/11/2023 at 5:37 PM, Rob Elsman said:

 . . . there is an incidental motion, Request to Withdraw a Motion, by which the maker can ask permission to withdraw his motion.  This motion requires a second . . . .

Are you sure? That’s not the way I read 33:15. That section seems to clearly say that if there is an objection to the request to withdraw a motion by the member who made the motion, the chair can put the question directly to the assembly. The request can be granted by unanimous consent if there is no objection.

Edited November 12, 2023 at 01:07 AM by Richard Brown
Added last sentence

[Rob Elsman]

Well, it is true that any motion can be adopted by unanimous consent.  Because it is so common for the assembly to grant permission to the maker of the motion to withdraw it, the chair may proceed to ask if there is any objection.  However, when the motion is made by a member who is not the maker of the motion for which permission is being sought to withdraw, a second is required, RONR (12th ed.) 33:2, Standard Characteristic 4.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:06 PM, Richard Brown said:

The request can be granted by unanimous consent if there is no objection.

Or by majority vote if there is objection.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:24 PM, Rob Elsman said:

However, when the motion is made by a member who is not the maker of the motion for which permission is being sought to withdraw, a second is required, RONR (12th ed.) 33:2, Standard Characteristic 4.

I think you have that backward, or the not-hole has struck again.

Edited November 12, 2023 at 01:44 AM by Gary Novosielski

[Rob Elsman]

No, I have it just like I want it.

[Richard Brown]

On 11/11/2023 at 7:40 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Or by majority vote if there is objection.

Yes, and the request does not need a second if it is made by the member who made the motion he is seeking to withdraw.  I think 33:15 is clear on that.  Requests such as this do not require a second. She also 33:2 (4)

[Richard Brown]

On 11/11/2023 at 7:45 PM, Rob Elsman said:

No, I have it just like I want it.

Then you have it wrong. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:52 PM, Richard Brown said:

Yes, and the request does not need a second if it is made by the member who made the motion he is seeking to withdraw.  I think 33:15 is clear on that.  Requests such as this do not require a second. She also 33:2 (4)

Sorry, but both 33:2(4) and 33:15 say exactly the opposite.

 

 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/11/2023 at 8:55 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Sorry, but both 33:2(4) and 33:15 say exactly the opposite (i.e., they agree with each other).

Requests made on behalf of another member do not require a second. (The other member is, in effect, the second.)

Requests made on behalf of oneself do require a second.

The fact that the chair states the question as a motion after a failed unanimous consent request is a loophole in RONR that allows any motion to reach the floor without a second, provided it is first offered as a unanimous consent request.

 

 

 

Edited November 12, 2023 at 02:01 AM by Gary Novosielski

[Richard Brown]

On 11/11/2023 at 7:55 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Sorry, but both 33:2(4) and 33:15 say exactly the opposite.

 

 

No, they do not. I think you need to read both sections again carefully. I’m not referring to making a motion to withdraw a motion, I’m referring to a REQUEST to withdraw a motion, made by the person who made the motion he is seeking to withdraw.  If there is an objection, the chair can put the question directly to the assembly without anyone having to make a formal motion. 33:15. 

[Gary Novosielski]

On 11/11/2023 at 9:02 PM, Richard Brown said:

No, they do not. I think you need to read both sections again carefully. I’m not referring to making a motion to withdraw a motion, I’m referring to a REQUEST to withdraw a motion, made by the person who made the motion he is seeking to withdraw.  If there is an objection, the chair can put the question directly to the assembly without anyone having to make a formal motion. 33:15. 

No, that's just the loophole that after any unanimous consent request, if there is objection, the chair states the question.  There's nothing there that is unique to a request to withdraw.  A request is an incidental motion which requires a second if made on behalf of oneself.  The fact that it was made or assumed by the chair as a unanimous consent request is what removes the need for a second.  Perhaps the chair is presumed to be the second.

A better rule, in my view, is stated in 33:22, which says: 

Generally, such matters are settled by unanimous consent or informally, but if there is an objection, a motion can be made to grant the request. I think that should be the general rule for all unanimous consent requests, which closes the "no second needed" loophole.

[Richard Brown]

@Rob Elsman and @Gary Novosielski, there is a distinction between a request and a formal motion. I believe you are blurring that distinction. I am not referring to a motion. I am referring to a request to withdraw a motion made by the member who made the original motion. Please read carefully the words in 33:2 (4) “the other requests do not require a second, except when moved formally by the maker of the request”. 

I am specifically not referring to making a formal motion and I believe the 33:15 is clear that no such formal motion is required unless the chair declines to put the question to the assembly on granting the request to withdraw the motion.

Note also that 33:16 makes a distinction between a request for permission to withdraw a motion and a formal motion to grant such permission.