Can a motion to substitute be rescinded?

[rwin123]

We've had an unusual event in which a college committee proposed the continuance of a course requirement with some modifications (due to staffing constraints).  After a rushed discussion in which a few faculty members expressed skepticism to the motion,  a motion to substitute in which the substitute is basically the negation of the original proposal (replacing the "keep the requirement" proposal with the "cancel the requirement" proposal. No clear invitation to argue for or against the substitute motion was made, and for that reason there was confusion over whether we voted for a proposed amendment to the substitute motion (which was made after the original substitute motion), or for  an actual motion to substitute. The motion (whatever it was) passed, and our faculty meeting steering committee determined that what passed was the motion to substitute.  Being on the committee that proposed the original motion, I feel that the rushed nature of the discussion and the unclarity surrounding the vote tarnished iits legitimacy. I have given prior notice to rescind the motion to substitute, in order to allow for proper discussion of the main motion. It seems that utilization of the substitute motion as a way to defeat a main motion is often warned against, but perhaps not completely against the rules? Please let me know what you think of our situation. ASAP, please, as our next faculty meeting is tomorrow!

[Atul Kapur]

There are several problems here. The most important is that the members apparently did not have a clear understanding of what they were voting on.

An amendment (which includes a substitute motion) which is simply a negation of the main motion should have been ruled out of order.

Your group apparently only voted once. There should have been two votes: First, the motion to replace the main motion with the substitute; Second the vote whether to adopt the current motion under consideration (the substitute if it was adopted in the first vote, or the original main motion if not).

As it's not at all clear what motion was adopted it is hard to advise whether it can be rescinded or best be dealt with another way.

It may even be that you just adopted the motion to substitute but did not actually vote on the (now substituted) main motion; that is, you may not have made a final decision at all.

Edited January 8, 2024 at 07:25 PM by Atul Kapur

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:07 PM, rnelson said:

We've had an unusual event in which a college committee proposed the continuance of a course requirement with some modifications (due to staffing constraints).  After a rushed discussion in which a few faculty members expressed skepticism to the motion,  a motion to substitute in which the substitute is basically the negation of the original proposal (replacing the "keep the requirement" proposal with the "cancel the requirement" proposal. No clear invitation to argue for or against the substitute motion was made, and for that reason there was confusion over whether we voted for a proposed amendment to the substitute motion (which was made after the original substitute motion), or for  an actual motion to substitute. The motion (whatever it was) passed, and our faculty meeting steering committee determined that what passed was the motion to substitute.  Being on the committee that proposed the original motion, I feel that the rushed nature of the discussion and the unclarity surrounding the vote tarnished iits legitimacy. I have given prior notice to rescind the motion to substitute, in order to allow for proper discussion of the main motion. It seems that utilization of the substitute motion as a way to defeat a main motion is often warned against, but perhaps not completely against the rules? Please let me know what you think of our situation. ASAP, please, as our next faculty meeting is tomorrow!

You appear never to have voted on the motion as amended (substituted).  If that's true, then the original prior situation is still in effect.  

[rwin123]

Thanks for the replies. You're correct that there are several problems.  There are actually more complications than have already been noted. Our steering committee includes the parliamentarian for our faculty meeting, so the ruling as to what was passed was partly due to his influence/discernment.  Secondly, we have a parliamentarian who is a voting participant in our faculty meetings (I've learned that Robert's Rules does not recommend, or actually prohibits, such an arrangement). After arguing against the motion, it was the parliamentarian who suggested the substitute proposal to do away with the course requirement and thus got this ball rolling.

[rwin123]

Oh, and I'm sorry, Atul Kapur for an unclear description.  The steering committee determined that we had passed the motion to substitute (not the substitute motion itself). My desire to rescind is out of a desire to set the order straight and to allow the original motion to be discussed properly.

[rwin123]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:20 PM, Atul Kapur said:

 

As it's not at all clear what motion was adopted it is hard to advise whether it can be rescinded or best be dealt with another way.

 

I'm really interested in whether we can rescind, with the assumption that we voted to replace the original motion with the substitute (and did not vote to approve the substitute motion).

[Rob Elsman]

I think the original poster is going to have to have recourse to the minutes to know exactly what happened and the answer to her interest.  We were not there, and it is really impossible for us to reconstruct the proceedings based on the uncertain description.

[rwin123]

 

On 1/8/2024 at 3:56 PM, Rob Elsman said:

I think the original poster is going to have to have recourse to the minutes to know exactly what happened and the answer to her interest.  We were not there, and it is really impossible for us to reconstruct the proceedings based on the uncertain description.

Outside the specifics of our confusing situation, let me ask the question in the abstract: Can a vote to replace a main motion with a substitute motion be rescinded? (BTW, I'm a "he"- unclear from my user name!).

[Rob Elsman]

The incidental main motion, Rescind or Amend Something Previously Adopted, can later be rescinded.  And, I apologize for the gender misidentification.

[Joshua Katz]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:35 PM, rwin123 said:

Our steering committee includes the parliamentarian for our faculty meeting, so the ruling as to what was passed was partly due to his influence/discernment.

Well, then I have another issue for you: the parliamentarian should not be making any "rulings" anyway.

[Joshua Katz]

On 1/8/2024 at 4:18 PM, rwin123 said:

Outside the specifics of our confusing situation, let me ask the question in the abstract: Can a vote to replace a main motion with a substitute motion be rescinded? (BTW, I'm a "he"- unclear from my user name!).

 

On 1/8/2024 at 4:23 PM, Rob Elsman said:

The incidental main motion, Rescind or Amend Something Previously Adopted, can later be rescinded.  And, I apologize for the gender misidentification.

However, the motion to Amend cannot itself be rescinded at a later meeting. I take Mr. Elsman to be pointing out that, if the amended motion was then adopted, it can be rescinded, and then the original motion made again, with which I agree. But the action of amending itself cannot be changed after the fact.

[Rob Elsman]

On 1/8/2024 at 3:55 PM, Joshua Katz said:

However, the motion to Amend cannot itself be rescinded at a later meeting. I take Mr. Elsman to be pointing out that, if the amended motion was then adopted, it can be rescinded, and then the original motion made again, with which I agree. But the action of amending itself cannot be changed after the fact.

This is a statement only a parliamentarian can love.  I'll leave it to you to make it make sense to the layperson.

[Joshua Katz]

On 1/8/2024 at 5:00 PM, Rob Elsman said:

This is a statement only a parliamentarian can love.  I'll leave it to you to make it make sense to the layperson.

Here's the question:

On 1/8/2024 at 4:18 PM, rwin123 said:

Outside the specifics of our confusing situation, let me ask the question in the abstract: Can a vote to replace a main motion with a substitute motion be rescinded? (BTW, I'm a "he"- unclear from my user name!).

You have a motion pending. You vote to substitute new language. You adopt (or not) the motion as amended. I take the question to be asking if you can then go back and rescind the decision to substitute. You cannot. That's not the same as rescinding a motion to Amend/Rescind Something Previously Adopted.

[Atul Kapur]

On 1/8/2024 at 2:45 PM, rwin123 said:

The steering committee determined that we had passed the motion to substitute (not the substitute motion itself).

While I don't think the steering committee has the authority to make that determination, it seems accurate.

On 1/8/2024 at 2:45 PM, rwin123 said:

My desire to rescind is out of a desire to set the order straight and to allow the original motion to be discussed properly.

Well, you don't need to rescind anything. And you cannot rescind an amendment. However, there is another solution. As this has carried over to another meeting which is, I presume, another session, you can move to substitute the original motion back in. This would reverse the substitution done at the previous meeting. This is allowed because the current meeting is a different session from the previous meeting. 

On 1/8/2024 at 4:55 PM, Joshua Katz said:

But the action of amending itself cannot be changed after the fact.

Joshua, I believe you will recall previous discussions on this forum where @Dan Honemann has explained that a different session has the ability to do just that when the main motion has carried forward from a previous session as Unfinished Business. That is, at Session One, main motion MM is amended by adding 'A.' MM+A is carried over to next session as Unfinished Business. At Session Two, MM+A can be amended to remove A leaving MM. Same principle applies to a substitute.

[Joshua Katz]

On 1/8/2024 at 5:09 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Joshua, I believe you will recall previous discussions on this forum where @Dan Honemann has explained that a different session has the ability to do just that when the main motion has carried forward from a previous session as Unfinished Business. That is, at Session One, main motion MM is amended by adding 'A.' MM+A is carried over to next session as Unfinished Business. At Session Two, MM+A can be amended to remove A leaving MM. Same principle applies to a substitute.

Sure. I answered the case where the motion has been finally disposed of:

On 1/8/2024 at 5:06 PM, Joshua Katz said:

You have a motion pending. You vote to substitute new language. You adopt (or not) the motion as amended.

 

[Atul Kapur]

I wanted to clarify because @rwin123's follow-up made me understand that the main (substituted) motion had not been finally disposed of. 

Glad we agree.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 1/8/2024 at 3:45 PM, rwin123 said:

I'm really interested in whether we can rescind, with the assumption that we voted to replace the original motion with the substitute (and did not vote to approve the substitute motion).

Well, you can't Rescind something that was not previously adopted.

But perhaps the situation is that this "substitute" was in fact a motion to Amend Something Previously Adopted, and that this amendment was in the nature of a substitute.  If that's the case then it's conceivable that one vote would be sufficient to adopt the change.  In that case, rather that rescinding, the same motion--to Amend Something Previously Adopted (q.v.)--could be made in an effort to make the adopted provision say whatever it is supposed to.  Both of these motions have identical characteristics, and for adoption require:

• A majority vote with previous notice;
• A two-thirds vote without previous notice; or
• A vote of a majority of the entire membership of the voting body;

...any one of which will suffice.