examples of "the parliamentary situation existing then"

[Baofeng Ma]

RONR (12th ed.) 23:2(1)-the 3rd black bullet point: "With reference to either of the above cases, on the other hand, if a motion to Lay on the Table or a privileged motion is pending and a point of order arises out of the parliamentary situation existing then, the point of order is disposed of first, although it can be interrupted by a still higher-ranking privileged motion. " 

Does anyone have examples of the situation? 

For example, if member A has spoken for more than 10 minutes member B raises a point of order, does it belong to the situation?

Another question: if the chair refers the point of order that arises out the parliamentary situation existing then, and then it becomes debatable, is a motion to recess or to adjourn still not allowed?

Edited February 20, 2024 at 12:31 AM by Baofeng Ma
Clarified citation

[Rob Elsman]

Let's suppose there is pending a main motion and a subsidiary motion, Lay on the Table.

A member then moves to apply a subsidiary motion, Amend, to the pending main motion.

I raise a Point of Order that Amend cannot be applied to the pending main motion in the current parliamentary situation because of the order of precedence of motions.

The third bullet is saying that the Point of Order must be disposed of before the question recurs on the adoption of the pending motion, Lay on the Table.

[Rob Elsman]

I don't understand the second question.

[Rob Elsman]

If it helps you, you can assume a motion, Postpone Indefinitely was also pending.

[Baofeng Ma]

On 2/19/2024 at 7:38 PM, Rob Elsman said:

Let's suppose there is pending a main motion and a subsidiary motion, Lay on the Table.

A member then moves to apply a subsidiary motion, Amend, to the pending main motion.

I raise a Point of Order that Amend cannot be applied to the pending main motion in the current parliamentary situation because of the order of precedence of motions.

The third bullet is saying that the Point of Order must be disposed of before the question recurs on the adoption of the pending motion, Lay on the Table.

Yeah, it is a good scenario if the chair starts to process the motion to Amend and a member raise a point of order.  

[Baofeng Ma]

On 2/19/2024 at 7:41 PM, Rob Elsman said:

I don't understand the second question.

Let's make the same assumption: The main motion and Lay on the table are pending. Member A moves to amend.

The chair starts to state the question after it is seconded. Member B raises a point of order and the chair does not know how to do and "refers the point of the order to the judgement of the assembly and where the point thereby becomes debatable " RONR (12th ed.) 23:2(1)-below the 3rd black bullet point. 

If Member C moves to adjourn, is the motion out of order?

[Rob Elsman]

The motion to Adjourn is in order.  "...although it can be interrupted by a still-higher privileged motion."

[Baofeng Ma]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:34 PM, Rob Elsman said:

The motion to Adjourn is in order.  "...although it can be interrupted by a still-higher privileged motion."

Does it mean that the adjourn is in order, but the point of order is disposed first, and then the chair handles the adjourn, right? 

[Rob Elsman]

Adjourn is disposed of first.

[Atul Kapur]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:31 PM, Baofeng Ma said:

The main motion and Lay on the table are pending. Member A moves to amend.

The chair starts to state the question after it is seconded. Member B raises a point of order and the chair does not know how to do and "refers the point of the order to the judgement of the assembly and where the point thereby becomes debatable " RONR (12th ed.) 23:2(1)-below the 3rd black bullet point. 

The point of order is not debatable in this situation because an undebatable motion (Lay on the Table) is pending (see 23:5 and 24:5(c)).

[Baofeng Ma]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:47 PM, Atul Kapur said:

The point of order is not debatable in this situation because an undebatable motion (Lay on the Table) is pending (see 23:5 and 24:5(c)).

I see. It is because that the undebatable question, Lay on the table, is immediately pending. 

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/19/2024 at 9:31 PM, Baofeng Ma said:

Let's make the same assumption: The main motion and Lay on the table are pending. Member A moves to amend.

The chair starts to state the question after it is seconded. Member B raises a point of order and the chair does not know how to do and "refers the point of the order to the judgement of the assembly and where the point thereby becomes debatable " RONR (12th ed.) 23:2(1)-below the 3rd black bullet point. 

If Member C moves to adjourn, is the motion out of order?

Whether the point of order is debatable or not (and in this case it's not), it yields to any privileged motion that is in order at the time according to the order of precedence of motions (based on the other motions that are pending besides the point of order). So unless a privileged motion to adjourn or to fix the time to which to adjourn is already pending (or the assembly is engaged in voting or verifying a vote, or there is some other reason a motion to adjourn is not in order), a privileged motion to adjourn would take precedence over the point of order and would be disposed of first. 

[Shmuel Gerber]

To better understand paragraph 23:2(1), it would probably be helpful to also read the entire subsection Conditions Under Which Incidental Motions Take Precedence over, or Yield to, Other Motions (6:18–22), and especially this:

"… incidental motions have no rank among themselves and cannot be assigned positions within the order of precedence of motions, although they have individual relationships to that order which are described in the sections dealing with these motions. With the exception of a Division of the Assembly, incidental motions yield to the privileged motions and generally yield to the motion to Lay on the Table, unless the incidental motion arose out of a motion of higher rank than the one to which it would otherwise yield …

"In connection with motions that can be incidental to motions of any rank (such as Point of Order, Appeal, Suspend the Rules, Motions Relating to Voting, and certain types of Requests and Inquiries), whenever it is stated that one of these motions yields to “all motions” above a certain rank, the incidental motion nevertheless does not yield to any motion ranking below the one out of which it arises. For example, “A Point of Order yields to the motion to Lay on the Table, and to all privileged motions.” This statement is true without qualification if the point of order is in connection with a motion ranking lower than Lay on the Table (that is, a main motion or any other subsidiary motion); but a point of order arising from a motion to Recess would yield only to the two higher-ranking privileged motions—to Adjourn and to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn."

[Baofeng Ma]

On 2/20/2024 at 1:55 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

To better understand paragraph 23:2(1), it would probably be helpful to also read the entire subsection Conditions Under Which Incidental Motions Take Precedence over, or Yield to, Other Motions (6:18–22), and especially this:

"… incidental motions have no rank among themselves and cannot be assigned positions within the order of precedence of motions, although they have individual relationships to that order which are described in the sections dealing with these motions. With the exception of a Division of the Assembly, incidental motions yield to the privileged motions and generally yield to the motion to Lay on the Table, unless the incidental motion arose out of a motion of higher rank than the one to which it would otherwise yield …

"In connection with motions that can be incidental to motions of any rank (such as Point of Order, Appeal, Suspend the Rules, Motions Relating to Voting, and certain types of Requests and Inquiries), whenever it is stated that one of these motions yields to “all motions” above a certain rank, the incidental motion nevertheless does not yield to any motion ranking below the one out of which it arises. For example, “A Point of Order yields to the motion to Lay on the Table, and to all privileged motions.” This statement is true without qualification if the point of order is in connection with a motion ranking lower than Lay on the Table (that is, a main motion or any other subsidiary motion); but a point of order arising from a motion to Recess would yield only to the two higher-ranking privileged motions—to Adjourn and to Fix the Time to Which to Adjourn."

Thank you. I read these paragraphs several times. Very helpful.