RONR in Brief + In Plain English advice, please

[Casey239]

First, this is a great forum.   Thank you.   I will be Parliamentarian next year (Sep - May) in my local council of catholic women.  in our bylaws, we have RONR In Brief as our resource to go by.  When I am installed in May of this year, I'd like to add the RONR in Plain English by Zimmerman.  It doesn't need to be in the bylaws.  In Plain English has the logistics for electronic media, zoom meetings, conference calls, which I think we will need going forward.  We are now only 81 strong, but we're looking to increase membership and that will necessitate that we update to the 21st century!

So, can I use this or do I just need to go by RONR In Brief?   I am not a professional parliamentarian, nor has anyone been in the history of our group (1991). I just want to do it correctly. 

Thank you for any help you can offer.

[Dan Honemann]

On 2/21/2024 at 11:38 AM, Casey239 said:

First, this is a great forum.   Thank you.   I will be Parliamentarian next year (Sep - May) in my local council of catholic women.  in our bylaws, we have RONR In Brief as our resource to go by.  When I am installed in May of this year, I'd like to add the RONR in Plain English by Zimmerman.  It doesn't need to be in the bylaws.  In Plain English has the logistics for electronic media, zoom meetings, conference calls, which I think we will need going forward.  We are now only 81 strong, but we're looking to increase membership and that will necessitate that we update to the 21st century!

So, can I use this or do I just need to go by RONR In Brief?   I am not a professional parliamentarian, nor has anyone been in the history of our group (1991). I just want to do it correctly. 

Thank you for any help you can offer.

If your bylaws say that RONR In Brief is your parliamentary authority, then, as stated on page 7 of that book, the current edition of RONR is actually your parliamentary authority.  To change to another will require a bylaw amendment.  

I doubt that the Zimmerman book is suitable for use as a parliamentary authority either.  In any event, it really isn't a good idea to try to name two manuals as your authority. 

 

[Gary Novosielski]

RONRIB is not a suitable work to be used as a parliamentary authority.

Refer to RONRIB (3rd ed.) Page 7:

 Because this book is only an introduction and guide to RONR, it is not itself suitable for adoption by any organization as its “parliamentary authority”—the book of rules the group names to govern its meeting procedure. If any organization designates this book as its parliamentary authority, it actually adopts the current edition of Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised.

So, your parliamentary authority is currently RONR 12th edition.  You should get a copy, because there are many citations in RONRIB that will refer to to the official rule in RONR.  It would be wise to amend your bylaws to use the recommended language: 

The rules contained in the current edition of Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised shall govern the Society in all cases to which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with these bylaws and any special rules of order the Society may adopt.

(The word Society, which appears twice, can of course be replaced by something more appropriate to how your organization refers to itself.)

There's no problem in using other books to better understand Robert's Rules, but it should be understood that the actual rule can reside in only one place.  Currently that one place is RONR 12th ed.  RONRIB and the Zimmerman book (I have not read the latter) may be useful, but not binding, if push comes to shove.  

 

Dagnabbit, Dan beat me by 10 seconds.

 

 

 

[Dan Honemann]

On 2/21/2024 at 12:36 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Dagnabbit, Dan beat me by 10 seconds.

Yeah, but I like your response better than mine.

[Casey239]

Thank you!  I will order a copy of RONR and read it thoroughly; I have a few months! 

I found Zimmeman's In Plain English RONR as I was looking for ways to conduct electronic meetings that would mesh with RONR.  She is a parliamentarian of 30 years, and very clearly states that her guidance on zoom meetings and conference calls are not per RONR.  But they are helpful. 

 

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

And once you've "read it thoroughly," you'll be ready to start the process of getting credentialed as a parliamentarian!

 

[Rob Elsman]

I have to question why a local council (of Catholic women or otherwise) would need a parliamentarian at all. If the presiding officer is experienced and possesses the proper temperament, my sense of it is that the organization could easily do without.

[Casey239]

Mr. Goodwiller - yes, I was thinking about that.  Are the self study courses any good?  There are so many out there! Also, I am retired, so maybe fun to see if I would qualify but I wouldn't be using it as a business. I do love a challenge!

Mr. Elsman -  While we are a local group out of a local parish, we are connected with the Diocese Council of Catholic Women and then upward to the National Council of Catholic Women.  So my guess, although I've only been part of this group for 3 years, is that since NCCW goes by RONR, we will too.  We deal with a lot of fundraising, giving to local charities, scholarships, so I think they want to have an orderly process.  We are all volunteers, so the chairwoman, in this case, changes every 2 years.  RONR gives us some consistency.  Those are my thoughts....

[Rob Elsman]

My point is that the presiding officer of such a council should be able to make use of the rules without the need of a parliamentarian. Otherwise, I have to wonder if the presiding officer has any business being in the chair at all.

[Casey239]

So the point was not whether we should use the RONR but that the chair should be able to do it without a separate person doing it?

As I stated, we are a volunteer organization, and while we come from many different careers, few of us are polished in parliamentary rules, if any.   It is difficult enough to get people to volunteer to chair, never mind do both jobs. 

As I understand it, my role will be to advise the chair on rules and be a silent leader.  From what I've read, I will be a resource to the Chair, the Board, and the Assembly.  For instance, we haven't had open discussion on issues for at least a year; I will change that so all have a voice.  I can see we also need to work on our bylaws and clarify the language a bit.  

 

[Rob Elsman]

Thousands of volunteer organizations all over the United States successfully use Robert's Rules without a parliamentarian. Few of their presiding officers are "polished", but many have learned well enough to serve with distinction. The authors of Robert's Rules have worked hard for a century and a half to make this possible.

[Casey239]

 

Thanks for your comments, Mr. Elsman.  I hear you.  Theoretically, you may be right.  However, the reality for me is that I am walking into this role and I want to do the best I can with it for our organization and membership. 

[Dan Honemann]

On 2/21/2024 at 5:43 PM, Casey239 said:

 

Thanks for your comments, Mr. Elsman.  I hear you.  Theoretically, you may be right.  However, the reality for me is that I am walking into this role and I want to do the best I can with it for our organization and membership. 

And you are to be congratulated and admired for doing so.  Please feel free to visit here whenever you encounter something in RONR that you find at all difficult to understand.  

[Casey239]

Thank you.  No doubt I'll be back with more frequency in the Fall when all that reading turns into practical application.   I do appreciate this forum!

[Josh Martin]

On 2/21/2024 at 10:38 AM, Casey239 said:

First, this is a great forum.   Thank you.   I will be Parliamentarian next year (Sep - May) in my local council of catholic women.  in our bylaws, we have RONR In Brief as our resource to go by.  When I am installed in May of this year, I'd like to add the RONR in Plain English by Zimmerman.  It doesn't need to be in the bylaws.  In Plain English has the logistics for electronic media, zoom meetings, conference calls, which I think we will need going forward.  We are now only 81 strong, but we're looking to increase membership and that will necessitate that we update to the 21st century!

So, can I use this or do I just need to go by RONR In Brief?   I am not a professional parliamentarian, nor has anyone been in the history of our group (1991). I just want to do it correctly. 

You should do neither of these things. You should adopt Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised as your parliamentary authority, as shown below.

"The rules contained in the current edition of Robert’s Rules of Order Newly Revised shall govern the Society in all cases to which they are applicable and in which they are not inconsistent with these bylaws and any special rules of order the Society may adopt."

Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised In Brief is still an excellent guide to Robert's Rules of Order, and there are also third party guides out there. I can't speak to whether Plain English is any good. I can vouch for Robert's Rules of Order for Dummies. In any event, however, these are guides to Robert's Rules of Order and are intended to be a supplement to RONR, not a substitute for it. They are not suitable for use as a parliamentary authority on their own.

The full text of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised also contains information regarding "electronic media, zoom meetings, conference calls."

[Casey239]

Thank you.  I'm learning that this is the case -- the RONR Newly Revised Ed. 12 is the book, not pointing to it via In Brief.  Amazon delivered the full book to me today, so I can get reading!   As far as the bylaws go, that is one change I will make.  We break, as a group, from May - September, so there is a lovely summer to work out any changes and present them to the Board of Directors, then the Assembly in September.  This time, we will have open discussion on the changes which hasn't occurred much in the past.  I'm looking forward to this!