Limiting Debate while Considering by Paragraph

[pwilson]

In the discussion of Consideration by Paragraph, RONR (12th ed.) 28:8 forbids the application of Previous Question and Limit or Extend Limits of Debate to individual paragraphs.

Why wouldn't the principle described in 15:17 apply, namely, "that the two-thirds vote necessary for the adoption of any motion to modify the limits of debate also fulfills the requirement for suspending the rules"?

[Dan Honemann]

On 3/13/2024 at 7:56 AM, pwilson said:

In the discussion of Consideration by Paragraph, RONR (12th ed.) 28:8 forbids the application of Previous Question and Limit or Extend Limits of Debate to individual paragraphs.

Why wouldn't the principle described in 15:17 apply, namely, "that the two-thirds vote necessary for the adoption of any motion to modify the limits of debate also fulfills the requirement for suspending the rules"?

When a proposal is being considered seriatim, the paragraphs or sections within it are considered individually, one-by-one.  During consideration of each individual paragraph, that paragraph is open to debate and amendment, but it does not constitute a separate question, and no vote will be taken on it.  Motions to order the Previous Question or to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate  can be applied only to pending motions. It is for this reason that motions to order the Previous Question or to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate can be applied to proposed amendments to the paragraph under consideration, or to the entire document, but not to the paragraph under consideration.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/13/2024 at 6:56 AM, pwilson said:

In the discussion of Consideration by Paragraph, RONR (12th ed.) 28:8 forbids the application of Previous Question and Limit or Extend Limits of Debate to individual paragraphs.

Why wouldn't the principle described in 15:17 apply, namely, "that the two-thirds vote necessary for the adoption of any motion to modify the limits of debate also fulfills the requirement for suspending the rules"?

I concur with Mr. Honemann's answer and his reasoning. I would add, however, that nothing prevents the use of the motion to Suspend the Rules in order to end debate and amendment on a particular paragraph. It would also be in order to adopt a motion to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate which is applied to the main motion generally, but contains within it rules governing the time for debate and amendment on individual paragraphs. So it is still possible to reach the desired objective of applying limits on particular paragraphs.

I would also add, in regard to 15:17, that the full context of that rule is as follows:

"Unlike the case of main motions and lower-ranking subsidiary motions (Postpone Indefinitely, Amend, Commit, Postpone), the adoption of one motion limiting or extending debate in a certain way does not prevent another such conflicting motion from being in order. A motion to set different limitation(s) or extension(s), or to change from one to the other, or to order the Previous Question (16), can be made at any time that it is in order under the order of precedence of motions, until the pending questions affected have been finally disposed of. The reason is that the two-thirds vote necessary for the adoption of any motion to modify the limits of debate also fulfills the requirement for suspending the rules (25)." RONR (12th ed.) 15:17

When viewed in its full context, it seems apparent to me that the text is saying that a motion for the Previous Question or to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate suffices to suspend the rules with respect to a conflict with a previously adopted motion to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate, not that it suffices to suspend any rules whatsoever.

Edited March 13, 2024 at 10:45 PM by Josh Martin

[pwilson]

Both replies are very helpful. Thanks!

What would be wrong with moving to suspend the rules and end debate and amendment on a particular paragraph being considered? Although SDC 2 of Previous Question requires that Previous Question be applied to a motion or series of motions, rather than to an individual paragraph within a motion, that sort of rule/requirement is not among those that cannot be suspended (25:7–13).

[Dan Honemann]

On 3/13/2024 at 6:57 PM, pwilson said:

Both replies are very helpful. Thanks!

What would be wrong with moving to suspend the rules and end debate and amendment on a particular paragraph being considered? Although SDC 2 of Previous Question requires that Previous Question be applied to a motion or series of motions, rather than to an individual paragraph within a motion, that sort of rule/requirement is not among those that cannot be suspended (25:7–13).

I suppose it would be in order, while considering a particular paragraph, to move to suspend the rules that interfere with immediately ending debate on that paragraph, but I do not think the rules can be suspended to order a vote on it.  I think this would violate the rule that only one motion can be considered at a time. 

[Josh Martin]

On 3/13/2024 at 5:57 PM, pwilson said:

What would be wrong with moving to suspend the rules and end debate and amendment on a particular paragraph being considered? Although SDC 2 of Previous Question requires that Previous Question be applied to a motion or series of motions, rather than to an individual paragraph within a motion, that sort of rule/requirement is not among those that cannot be suspended (25:7–13).

Well, you have to remember that the Previous Question doesn't just end debate and amendment. It also brings the pending question to an immediate vote.

"The Previous Question is the motion used to bring the assembly to an immediate vote on one or more pending questions; its adoption does this with certain exceptions." RONR (12th ed.) 16:1, emphasis added

No vote is taken on an individual paragraph, and therefore, the Previous Question has no meaningful application to a particular paragraph.

But yes, the motion to Suspend the Rules (not the motion for the Previous Question) may be used to end debate and amendment on a particular paragraph.

Edited March 14, 2024 at 12:33 PM by Josh Martin

[pwilson]

Thanks for the helpful insights.

If I'm understanding correctly, the assembly is free to suspend the rules in order to limit, extend, or end debate on an individual paragraph being considered seriatim.

But: (1) Limit or Extend Limits of Debate and Previous Question cannot be applied to an individual paragraph that is not a pending quesiton, and (2) Previous Question cannot be used to end debate on an individual paragraph without bringing anything to an immediate vote.

[Dan Honemann]

On 3/14/2024 at 12:13 PM, pwilson said:

Thanks for the helpful insights.

If I'm understanding correctly, the assembly is free to suspend the rules in order to limit, extend, or end debate on an individual paragraph being considered seriatim.

But: (1) Limit or Extend Limits of Debate and Previous Question cannot be applied to an individual paragraph that is not a pending quesiton, and (2) Previous Question cannot be used to end debate on an individual paragraph without bringing anything to an immediate vote.

Previous Question cannot be applied to an individual paragraph, period.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/14/2024 at 11:13 AM, pwilson said:

If I'm understanding correctly, the assembly is free to suspend the rules in order to limit, extend, or end debate on an individual paragraph being considered seriatim.

Yes.

On 3/14/2024 at 11:13 AM, pwilson said:

(1) Limit or Extend Limits of Debate and Previous Question cannot be applied to an individual paragraph that is not a pending quesiton,

Neither of these motions may be applied to an individual paragraph, period. A similar effect may be accomplished by one of the following:

• A motion to Suspend the Rules
• A motion to Limit or Extend Limits of Debate which is applied to the entire pending question, but contains limits pertaining to individual paragraphs

On 3/14/2024 at 11:13 AM, pwilson said:

(2) Previous Question cannot be used to end debate on an individual paragraph without bringing anything to an immediate vote.

Previous Question cannot be used in regard to an individual paragraph, period.

Also, it must be understood that the effect of the Previous Question is always to bring something to an immediate vote. For this reason, it has no logical application for something you're not voting on, such as an individual paragraph.

At the end of the day, the thing to remember here is that if you want to apply limits to just an individual paragraph, and not the entire motion, the proper motion to use is Suspend the Rules, not Limit or Extend Limits of Debate or the Previous Question.

Edited March 14, 2024 at 04:46 PM by Josh Martin

[pwilson]

Got it. I very much appreciate your (pl.) patience and expert assistance.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 3/13/2024 at 6:57 PM, pwilson said:

Both replies are very helpful. Thanks!

What would be wrong with moving to suspend the rules and end debate and amendment on a particular paragraph being considered? Although SDC 2 of Previous Question requires that Previous Question be applied to a motion or series of motions, rather than to an individual paragraph within a motion, that sort of rule/requirement is not among those that cannot be suspended (25:7–13).

Because adopting the Previous Question ends all debate on the pending question and proceeds to an immediate vote.  

If a paragraph is being considered seriatim and an amendment to that paragraph is under debate, then the pending question is on the amendment.  Moving the Previous Question on only that amendment would cause a vote on the amendment, and proceed to further debate on the document as amended.  But moving the Previous Question unqualified, would proceed to a final vote on approval, which is probably not what is desired, at least not yet.

There is no vote to approve individual paragraphs.  Only if amendments are offered is there anything to vote on.  And if no amendments are offered, I'm not clear what is being debated at that point.  Those who want to amend it will move to do so, and that would be debatable, and end with a vote.  Those who oppose it completely would move to strike it completely, and that would be an amendment and open to debate and vote.

But those who favor the current wording as is, or as already amended, will remain silent, and so any occasion for debate would seem to be naturally limited.  Under what situation would a paragraph being considered, with no amendment pending, be debated at all—or at least to the point where a motion to limit it was required?

(I think all it would take is a reminder from the chair such as "Okay, if there are no amendments to this paragraph, let's move on.")

Edited March 14, 2024 at 06:39 PM by Gary Novosielski
punctuation, mostly

[pwilson]

On 3/14/2024 at 2:36 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

But those who favor the current wording as is, or as already amended, will remain silent, and so any occasion for debate would seem to be naturally limited.  Under what situation would a paragraph being considered, with no amendment pending, be debated at all—or at least to the point where a motion to limit it was required?

(I think all it would take is a reminder from the chair such as "Okay, if there are no amendments to this paragraph, let's move on.")

My original worry concerned the few members who do not remain silent when they should and insist on the right to speak twice to every paragraph. I wondered about the proper procedure for two-thirds of the assembly to limit or end unproductive debate on an individual paragraph and move on to the next paragraph, given that Limit Debate and Previous Question can't be applied to an individual paragraph.

I see now that Suspend the Rules is a straightforward solution in such circumstances.

[Rob Elsman]

If consideration by paragraph is not working out well for the assembly, the best solution is for a member to move to consider as a whole. The characteristics of this motion are the same. 

I do not understand the use of Suspend the Rules in this situation. If this motion would be able to garner the necessary two-thirds vote, then it is likely that the assembly is also supportive of the motion, Previous Question, to bring the assembly to an immediate vote.

[Josh Martin]

On 3/14/2024 at 5:00 PM, Rob Elsman said:

I do not understand the use of Suspend the Rules in this situation. If this motion would be able to garner the necessary two-thirds vote, then it is likely that the assembly is also supportive of the motion, Previous Question, to bring the assembly to an immediate vote.

It does not seem unreasonable that there may be situations where the assembly has heard enough the paragraph currently being debated, but is open to hear debate on the other paragraphs.