Voting before a meeting but not attending meeting?

[Guest John]

Every year we have an annual membership meeting for our church to vote in new elders and deacons among other motions. 

People will vote in the lobby where the ballots are before the meeting but do not show up to the meeting. 

Our bylaws don’t define a quorum and simply state that binding decisions must have votes cast equal to 75% of the average of the votes cast during the last two membership meetings.  

Is there anything wrong with this according to Robert’s Rules?

[Drake Savory]

Without more information, I would say this violates the entire principle of a deliberative body.

[Guest John]

What more information would be needed to know if this is allowed?

The list of nominees are elected and confirmed at the annual membership meeting according to the bylaws. There is not much fanfare or deliberation. 

Does the voting need to happen in the middle of the meeting? How does that work with paper ballots and counting them? 

 

[Rob Elsman]

Churches are often governed by muscular sets of their own laws, so I can well image that the proper rules for voting might be found there.  As far as RONR (12th ed.) is controlling, it is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that voting is limited to members who are actually present in the one room or area where the meeting is being held.  This principle would preclude people from voting before the meeting is even held.

As an aside, it is hard for me to imagine how this is done.  How does one vote on a question until the question has been fully subject to modification?  It seems to me possible--even likely--that the "pre-voters" will vote on different questions than the questions that actually get put to a vote during the meeting.

[Josh Martin]

On 4/20/2024 at 9:38 AM, Guest John said:

Every year we have an annual membership meeting for our church to vote in new elders and deacons among other motions. 

People will vote in the lobby where the ballots are before the meeting but do not show up to the meeting. 

Is this authorized in your bylaws? If not, this practice is not permissible.

To the extent this practice is authorized, you're on your own, because RONR's only advice on this subject is "Don't do that, and if you ignore this advice, you're on your own." RONR strongly advises against "mixing and matching" votes cast prior to a meeting with votes cast during a meeting.

"It is a fundamental principle of parliamentary law that the right to vote is limited to the members of an organization who are actually present at the time the vote is taken in a regular or properly called meeting, although it should be noted that a member need not be present when the question is put. Exceptions to this rule must be expressly stated in the bylaws. Such possible exceptions include: (a) voting by postal mail, e-mail, or fax, and (b) proxy voting. An organization should never adopt a bylaw permitting a question to be decided by a voting procedure in which the votes of persons who attend a meeting are counted together with ballots mailed in by absentees. The votes of those present could be affected by debate, by amendments, and perhaps by the need for repeated balloting, while those absent would be unable to adjust their votes to reflect these factors. Consequently, the absentee ballots would in most cases be on a somewhat different question than that on which those present were voting, leading to confusion, unfairness, and inaccuracy in determining the result. If there is a possibility of any uncertainty about who will be entitled to vote, this should be spelled out unambiguously and strictly enforced to avoid unfairness in close votes." RONR (12th ed.) 45:56

On 4/20/2024 at 9:38 AM, Guest John said:

Our bylaws don’t define a quorum...

Then generally, even setting aside this issue of people voting prior to the meeting, your organization likely does not need to be concerned about a quorum.

"Number of Members Constituting a Quorum. Depending on the organization and the provision it adopts in this regard, the number of members constituting a quorum may vary. As discussed below, most voluntary societies should provide for a quorum in their bylaws, but where there is no such provision, the quorum, in accordance with the common parliamentary law, is as follows: ...

2) In organizations such as many churches or some societies in which there are no required or effective annual dues and the register of members is not generally reliable as a list of the bona-fide members, the quorum at any regular or properly called meeting consists of those who attend." RONR (12th ed.) 40:2

On 4/20/2024 at 9:38 AM, Guest John said:

...and simply state that binding decisions must have votes cast equal to 75% of the average of the votes cast during the last two membership meetings.  

This is a very unusual provision, but ultimately your organization is free to adopt such rules as it wishes on this matter.

On 4/20/2024 at 9:38 AM, Guest John said:

Is there anything wrong with this according to Robert’s Rules?

Yes, pretty much all of it is wrong according to Robert's Rules, starting with the very basic concept of votes being cast by persons who are not present at the meeting.

Notwithstanding this, your organization is free to adopt its own rules in its bylaws which supersede Robert's Rules.

"Experience has shown that some of the rules of a society should be made more difficult to change, or to suspend—that is, to set aside for a specific purpose—than others. Upon this principle, the rules which an established organization may have are commonly divided into classes—some of which are needed by every society, while others may be required only as conditions warrant. Within this framework under the general parliamentary law, an assembly or society is free to adopt any rules it may wish (even rules deviating from parliamentary law) provided that, in the procedure of adopting them, it conforms to parliamentary law or its own existing rules. The only limitations upon the rules that such a body can thus adopt might arise from the rules of a parent body (as those of a national society restricting its state or local branches), or from national, state, or local law affecting the particular type of organization." RONR (12th ed.) 2:2

On 4/20/2024 at 10:00 AM, Guest John said:

Does the voting need to happen in the middle of the meeting?

Yes, that is ordinarily how voting works.

An alternative option would be to instead provide for some method of absentee voting in the bylaws (by mail, electronically, submitted in person). But ordinarily, all votes should be taken in the same manner.

Having some people vote before the meeting and others vote during the meeting causes problems. What if the motions are amended, for example?

On 4/20/2024 at 10:00 AM, Guest John said:

How does that work with paper ballots and counting them? 

The same way you would count paper ballots otherwise.

Edited April 20, 2024 at 03:30 PM by Josh Martin