Convention Voting

[Wright Stuff]

Our organization has adopted RONR as our parliamentary authority. There will be two elections at our annual convention. There will be nominations and then a vote for the first office followed by nominations and then a vote for the second office. It will take a while to count the votes for the first election. Can we proceed with the second vote after everyone who wants to vote has voted (voting is closed) or do we have to wait for the votes of the first election to be counted and reported before proceeding with the second election? Our bylaws do not address this question. 

[Wright Stuff]

I think I just found my answer in 45:6. We can proceed to the second vote after the voting closes on the first vote as we are not interfering with a vote being taken. 

45:6    Interruption of Votes. When a vote is being taken, no interruption is permitted from the time that any member has actually voted until all have presumably voted, unless as sometimes occurs in ballot voting, other business is being transacted during voting.

Please tell me if you disagree. 

 

[Atul Kapur]

Presumably, the rationale for doing two separate ballots is for the members to be aware of the results of the first election before making nominations and voting for the second office. That rationale is defeated if you don't wait for the results of the first election (even if that requires more than one ballot). 

So, my answer is that you

On 4/29/2024 at 7:29 PM, Wright Stuff said:

have to wait for the votes of the first election to be counted and reported before proceeding with the second election?

See RONR (12th ed.) 46:31 for more information on both.

[Wright Stuff]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:48 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Presumably, the rationale for doing two separate ballots is for the members to be aware of the results of the first election before making nominations and voting for the second office. That rationale is defeated if you don't wait for the results of the first election (even if that requires more than one ballot). 

There is no overlap between the two offices. One election will not affect the other. If the first election requires a revote (extremely unlikely), it would be conducted when the votes are counted. The purpose is to save time. People leave when things run too long. 

Edited April 29, 2024 at 05:51 PM by Wright Stuff

[Josh Martin]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:37 PM, Wright Stuff said:

I think I just found my answer in 45:6. We can proceed to the second vote after the voting closes on the first vote as we are not interfering with a vote being taken. 

45:6    Interruption of Votes. When a vote is being taken, no interruption is permitted from the time that any member has actually voted until all have presumably voted, unless as sometimes occurs in ballot voting, other business is being transacted during voting.

This is correct.

[Atul Kapur]

Can someone who is unsuccessful in the first election be nominated for the second election? 

Can the winner of the first election be elected to the second office, as well? If so, would their election to Office1 affect how voters wish to vote on Office2?

These are some of the reasons why a group may want to hold their elections separately, as your group does.

If not, why bother to do it this way? Follow 46:31(1) and save yourselves the time.

[Richard Brown]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:29 PM, Wright Stuff said:

There will be two elections at our annual convention. There will be nominations and then a vote for the first office followed by nominations and then a vote for the second office. It will take a while to count the votes for the first election. Can we proceed with the second vote after everyone who wants to vote has voted (voting is closed) or do we have to wait for the votes of the first election to be counted and reported before proceeding with the second election?

The short answer is that yes, you can proceed with the second election once voting in the first election is closed.  As my colleagues have pointed out, there are pros and cons to each method.

[Atul Kapur]

On 4/29/2024 at 7:52 PM, Josh Martin said:

This is correct.

Technically, perhaps, but it either removes the organization's flexibility as provided by the method in 46:31(2) or wastes time by not following the procedure in 46:31(1). So I see no benefit whatsoever.

[Wright Stuff]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:57 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Technically, perhaps, but it either removes the organization's flexibility as provided by the method in 46:31(2) or wastes time by not following the procedure in 46:31(1). So I see no benefit whatsoever.

A person who is nominated for the first election can be nominated for the second election. The person can fill both positions without conflict. At least at some level, the positions are not connected and don't conflict with each other. If this person wins both elections, so be it. 

Counting the votes for the first election will take significantly longer than counting the votes for the second election, but the first election needs to precede the second election for purposes that don't matter here. 

At the risk of sounding arrogant, the reason we don't use a single ballot is to eliminate confusion. Unfortunately, the delegates will get confused over which position they're voting for if we do one ballot. We have a lot of experience in this area. 

I do appreciate the input, and I understand what you're saying. At least at this point, we're willing to accept the risk with the understanding that someone can move to change the process. 

[Josh Martin]

On 4/29/2024 at 12:57 PM, Atul Kapur said:

Technically, perhaps, but it either removes the organization's flexibility as provided by the method in 46:31(2) or wastes time by not following the procedure in 46:31(1). So I see no benefit whatsoever.

There is no doubt that there are practical considerations as to whether the assembly should hold both of these elections simultaneously. That is a question which I leave to the assembly's judgment. But there is no doubt that the assembly may hold both elections simultaneously if it wishes to do so.

Edited April 29, 2024 at 08:03 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:49 PM, Wright Stuff said:

There is no overlap between the two offices. One election will not affect the other. If the first election requires a revote (extremely unlikely), it would be conducted when the votes are counted. The purpose is to save time. People leave when things run too long. 

Perhaps, but I agree with @Atul Kapur that when separate balloting is done, the results are announced before the election for the subsequent office takes place.

If your goal is to save time, why not use one combination ballot?

[Josh Martin]

On 4/30/2024 at 1:28 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Perhaps, but I agree with @Atul Kapur that when separate balloting is done, the results are announced before the election for the subsequent office takes place.

If your goal is to save time, why not use one combination ballot?

The OP has already stated the answer to this question is that "the reason we don't use a single ballot is to eliminate confusion. Unfortunately, the delegates will get confused over which position they're voting for if we do one ballot. We have a lot of experience in this area."

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 4/29/2024 at 1:37 PM, Wright Stuff said:

I think I just found my answer in 45:6. We can proceed to the second vote after the voting closes on the first vote as we are not interfering with a vote being taken. 

45:6    Interruption of Votes. When a vote is being taken, no interruption is permitted from the time that any member has actually voted until all have presumably voted, unless as sometimes occurs in ballot voting, other business is being transacted during voting.

Please tell me if you disagree. 

This paragraph talks about doing business during voting, not during counting the votes.

Doing business while the votes are counted is mentioned in 45:30.

[Wright Stuff]

On 5/2/2024 at 2:54 PM, Shmuel Gerber said:

This paragraph talks about doing business during voting, not during counting the votes.

Doing business while the votes are counted is mentioned in 45:30.

Thank you