does advance notice have to be given for a substantive motion?

[Guest Karen]

Does advance notice have to be given for a substantive motion?

[Joshua Katz]

No rule in RONR requires it (or defines substantive motion). Your rules could, and hopefully they'll also define their terms if so. For some motions, such as amend or rescind something previously adopted, notice will change the voting threshold.

[Richard Brown]

Not generally, but it would help if you give us more information.  Previous notice is not needed for most routine motions per the rules in RONR, but your bylaws might require something different. If so, your bylaws prevail.  Proposed bylaw amendments and the adoption of special rules of order generally require previous notice.   Sometimes, previous notice is not required, but the vote threshold is lowered if notice is given  A motion to rescind or amend something previously adopted is an example of such a motion.

[Guest Karen]

On 7/22/2024 at 7:13 PM, Richard Brown said:

Not generally, but it would help if you give us more information.  Previous notice is not needed for most routine motions per the rules in RONR, but your bylaws might require something different. If so, your bylaws prevail.  Proposed bylaw amendments and the adoption of special rules of order generally require previous notice.   Sometimes, previous notice is not required, but the vote threshold is lowered if notice is given  A motion to rescind or amend something previously adopted is an example of such a motion.

Thanks for your response. This is not in our bylaws and we were given no advance warning that the Chair would be implementing this new rule. In fact, in previous meetings, the Directors themselves brought up motions with no advance notice. So this was a surprise to us.

Someone protested, so the Chair  called for a vote and the assembly approved his ruling. But that's because he told them it was "Roberts Rules and they assumed he knew what he was talking about.

However, it seems contradictory for the Chair to say members have to give advance notice, but he himself did not tell anyone in advance that this rule would be applied.ion

Which leads me to the next question. If something like this is patently. unfair, is it acceptable just because the assembly approved it? Or does it contradict some aspect of Robert's Rules?

[Gary Novosielski]

Unless there is some odd rule in your bylaws, the chair ruled incorrectly, but for some reason his ruling was sustained by the assembly.  So that appears to be that, at least for that meeting. 

But the chair should not be allowed to get away with making up new rules as he goes along.  The proper response when someone says "Oh, that's in Robert's Rules" is to ask for a Section and Paragraph citation.  He would not, in this instance, be able to provide one.  And what's up with the assembly, approving of such nonsense?

 

[Atul Kapur]

On 7/23/2024 at 10:35 PM, Guest Karen said:

This is not in our bylaws and we were given no advance warning that the Chair would be implementing this new rule. In fact, in previous meetings, the Directors themselves brought up motions with no advance notice. So this was a surprise to us.

Someone protested, so the Chair  called for a vote and the assembly approved his ruling. But that's because he told them it was "Roberts Rules and they assumed he knew what he was talking about.

Requiring advance notice of any substantive motion would be a Special Rule of Order. To adopt a Special Rule requires notice (ironically enough) and a 2/3 vote (the affirmative vote of the majority of the entire membership of the body would also adopt it). RONR (12th ed.) 2:14-2:22 covers this, with the vote requirement in 2:22.

So the assembly's action of upholding the chair's ruling only applied for that particular meeting (with a possible exception if the majority of the entire membership voted in favour of the chair's ruling). You should prepare yourself and some like-minded colleagues if the chair attempts to enforce this "rule" at a future meeting.

[Dan Honemann]

On 7/23/2024 at 10:35 PM, Guest Karen said:

This is not in our bylaws and we were given no advance warning that the Chair would be implementing this new rule. In fact, in previous meetings, the Directors themselves brought up motions with no advance notice. So this was a surprise to us.

I agree with Mr. Brown that more information would be helpful.

What type of group is meeting? Is it the organization's full membership or its board?

[Guest Karen]

On 7/23/2024 at 11:59 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

Unless there is some odd rule in your bylaws, the chair ruled incorrectly, but for some reason his ruling was sustained by the assembly.  So that appears to be that, at least for that meeting. 

But the chair should not be allowed to get away with making up new rules as he goes along.  The proper response when someone says "Oh, that's in Robert's Rules" is to ask for a Section and Paragraph citation.  He would not, in this instance, be able to provide one.  And what's up with the assembly, approving of such nonsense?

 

Thank you for your response. At the time he said it, someone did challenge the Chair to provide the section and he said he didn't have it, but he insisted it was correct. So it was a member's word against the Chair's, and the assembly took the Chair's word for it.

This was in a condo complex where the average person doesn't have a clue about RONR, and, in fact, some of them show resentment when people bring it up, because they think its quibbling, even though the bylaws require adherance to RONR.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 7/26/2024 at 12:04 PM, Guest Karen said:

At the time he said it, someone did challenge the Chair to provide the section and he said he didn't have it, but he insisted it was correct.

At such times it's good to have a copy of RONR 12th ed. that you can hand to him.

[Weldon Merritt]

On 7/26/2024 at 11:04 AM, Guest Karen said:

This was in a condo complex where the average person doesn't have a clue about RONR, and, in fact, some of them show resentment when people bring it up, because they think its quibbling, even though the bylaws require adherance to RONR.

Maybe a few more instances of the chair's nonsense will convince them otherwise. But I'm not holding my breath.

On 7/26/2024 at 1:51 PM, Gary Novosielski said:

At such times it's good to have a copy of RONR 12th ed. that you can hand to him.

I agree. But in reality, I have found that most members do not have a copy either. That's what let's those who claim,. "It's in Robert's," but can't give you a citation, get away with it.