extending/limiting debate

[Guest Vladimir]

Members may make a motion to limit/extend debate. It requires two/thirds because it affects individual members. But what is someone amends it?

Example:

Member A: "I move to extend debate to 10 minutes"

(President announces and it is seconded)

President: Are you ready for the question?

Member B: "Mr. President, I move to amend the motion, extending debate to 12 minutes."

(President announces and it is seconded)

Now what? Let's say it's seconded. I believe then if the amendment goes to a vote, it would only need a simple majority, since it's only an amendment. Right?

Secondly, since amendments can be amended once, can someone simply rise and say, "I wish to amend the amendment by moving to extend debate to 14 minutes." Can this be done?

And finally, let's say that the amendment to make it 14 passes. It is then necessary to take it back to the secondary and then main motion? (That would make no sense).

Thanks for reading, HELP!

Vladimir

[Kim Goldsworthy]

Members may make a motion to limit/extend debate.

It requires two/thirds because it affects individual members.

But what is someone amends it?

Amendments are allowed to the motion Limit/Extend Limits of Debate.

Example:

Member A: "I move to extend debate to 10 minutes"

(President announces and it is seconded)

President: Are you ready for the question?

Member B: "Mr. President, I move to amend the motion, extending debate to 12 minutes."

(President announces and it is seconded)

Snapshot:

• the base motion is the motion "to limit debate to 10 minutes";

• the primary amendment is "to strike '10' and insert '12'".

Now what?

Let's say it's seconded.

I believe then if the amendment goes to a vote, it would only need a simple majority, since it's only an amendment.

Right?

Right.

Secondly, since amendments can be amended once, can someone simply rise and say, "I wish to amend the amendment by moving to extend debate to 14 minutes." Can this be done?

Right, in idea, but wrong in wording.

You don't move a wholley new motion, but instead target ONLY the words to be altered.

You ought to have said, "To strike out [old value] and insert [new value]".

Here, "To strike out 12 and insert 14."

That nests the amendments so that the secondary amendment is immediately pending, and the primary amendment is nested.

And finally, let's say that the amendment to make it 14 passes.

It is then necessary to take it back to the secondary and then main motion? (That would make no sense).

Uh, close but no cigar.

If the '14' amendment passes, then the secondary amendment passes.

The value '12' is history.

The relationship between secondary Am. and primary Am. is complete.

So you work on the relationship between the base motion and the primary Am., as amended, which now holds a new value, here, namely, '14'.

From the viewpoint of the chair, the question is, "Shall the value '10' be struck out, and the value '14' be inserted?"

(You are working on the original motion as moved, and you will vote whether the primary amendment, as amended, shall be inserted into the base motion.)

[Chris Harrison]

An amendment is called a primary amendment, an amendment to an amendment is called a secondary amendment, and primary and secondary amendments only require a majority vote.

What would happen is the original motion is 10 minutes, then a member moves to amend to 12 minutes. Then a member moves to amend to 14 minutes. At that point on further amendments are in order until the secondary amendment is disposed of. If the secondary amendment is defeated the pending question is the amend to 12 minutes and a member can offer another secondary amendment. If the secondary amendment is adopted the pending question is to "extend debate to 14 minutes". That would require a 2/3 vote to adopt.

[Guest Vladimir]

An amendment is called a primary amendment, an amendment to an amendment is called a secondary amendment, and primary and secondary amendments only require a majority vote.

What would happen is the original motion is 10 minutes, then a member moves to amend to 12 minutes. Then a member moves to amend to 14 minutes. At that point on further amendments are in order until the secondary amendment is disposed of. If the secondary amendment is defeated the pending question is the amend to 12 minutes and a member can offer another secondary amendment. If the secondary amendment is adopted the pending question is to "extend debate to 14 minutes". That would require a 2/3 vote to adopt.

Ok, so let's say that someone says, "I move to extend debate to 10 minutes," but another person amends the motion to strike out 10 and put in 14 (and it is seconded and restated by the prez). It goes to a vote, and 2/3 approve of the amendment. What happens to the main motion at this point?

There are two possibilities (and only one of them is right):

1. The prez says, "The yeas have it, the amendment striking out "10 minutes" and replacing it with "14 minutes" passes. And then it stops there and main motion is killed.

OR...

2. The prez THEN goes back to the main motion and says, "The main motion has been amended to read "debate will be extended to 14 minutes." And the body votes on THIS main motion.

Which would it be, and could anyone explain the rationale behind your proper choice.

Thanks for all your replies so far!

[Rob Elsman]

Subsidiary motions to Amend always require a majority vote for adoption, regardless of the vote needed to adopt the motion being amended, RONR (10th ed.), p. 128, ll. 22-24.

The best way to decide how many minutes when there seem to be several suggestions is for a member to move to Create a Blank by Striking Out, and then filling the blank. See RONR (10th ed.), pp. 155-160.

[Chris Harrison]

Ok, so let's say that someone says, "I move to extend debate to 10 minutes," but another person amends the motion to strike out 10 and put in 14 (and it is seconded and restated by the prez). It goes to a vote, and 2/3 approve of the amendment. What happens to the main motion at this point?

There are two possibilities (and only one of them is right):

1. The prez says, "The yeas have it, the amendment striking out "10 minutes" and replacing it with "14 minutes" passes. And then it stops there and main motion is killed.

OR...

2. The prez THEN goes back to the main motion and says, "The main motion has been amended to read "debate will be extended to 14 minutes." And the body votes on THIS main motion.

Which would it be, and could anyone explain the rationale behind your proper choice.

Thanks for all your replies so far!

#2. It doesn't matter if every single member voted for the 14 minute amendment. The question was on whether the amendment changing 10 to 14 should pass. It could be that very few members want to extend debate and everyone else voted for the amendment just so they could get to the motion to extend debate and vote it down.

[Guest Vladimir]

Ok, thanks, fill in the blank is a good suggestion.

But based on my earlier post, which would it be, 1. or 2.? And why?

[Guest Vladimir]

#2. It doesn't matter if every single member voted for the 14 minute amendment. The question was on whether the amendment changing 10 to 14 should pass. It could be that very few members want to extend debate and everyone else voted for the amendment just so they could get to the motion to extend debate and vote it down.

Interesting...thanks. But what I don't get is, if only a small amount of people don't want to extend debate, then why not just kill the amendment by not voting on it? It would certainly publicly show their disinterest in the main one...

Anyway, thanks to all. You've answered my question.

-- Vlad

[hmtcastle]

Which would it be, and could anyone explain the rationale behind your proper choice.

You will always end up back with the original main motion, regardless of whether it was amended or not, and regardless of whether the amendment was amended or not. You work your way down and you work your way back.

[Rob Elsman]

Ok, thanks, fill in the blank is a good suggestion.

But based on my earlier post, which would it be, 1. or 2.? And why?

A motion to Create a Blank by Striking Out is an incidental motion, not a subsidiary motion. Any times already put forward are taken as suggestions, and members can offer further suggestions before the votes are taken on filling the blank.

[Chris Harrison]

Interesting...thanks. But what I don't get is, if only a small amount of people don't want to extend debate, then why not just kill the amendment by not voting on it? It would certainly publicly show their disinterest in the main one...

Anyway, thanks to all. You've answered my question.

-- Vlad

That is one strategy. However, you can't kill an amendment. In theory only one person could vote for the amendment and it would pass if no one opposed it.