restraining orders

[Guest sheboygan]

The secretary has a court ordered restraining order against another member, stating they cannot be in the same area, room etc. He shows up at a meeting and the secretary asks the president to enforce the court order and escort him out. The president refuses to, so the Secretary leaves. Does the president have the authority to do that? I believe he was in the wrong. By the way, alcohol is also served at these meetings

[jstackpo]

These are questions relating to the law and its enforcement not covered (or even hinted at) in RONR.

[David A Foulkes]

The secretary could call the police and see if they will stand by and wait to see if this member shows up. That's probably the best shot available, not taking into consideration the alcohol handy.

[Rev Ed]

The alcohol issue is way out of the scope of this forum and of RONR. This does raise the following questions:

1) Was this a meeting of the general membership or the Board? Or was it a social event? As the original post mentions alcohol, I would bet on the latter.

2) Is this other member also a member of the Board?

Assuming that we are talking about a Board meeting, if this other member is a member of the Board, then he/she has a legal right under RONR to be at the meeting, thus the President was correct. If this was a general membership meeting, the same applies if the member is a director or general member.

If this was a social event then the President, unless otherwise authorized in the By-laws or by order of the Board, has no "special" powers at the event, thus would not be able to stop this member from attending.

If the member appeared at a Board meeting, and is not a Board member, the Board has the right to have him/her removed.

I would go with David's suggestion above and suggest to the Secretary that he/she contacts the police if required.

[Josh Martin]

The secretary has a court ordered restraining order against another member, stating they cannot be in the same area, room etc. He shows up at a meeting and the secretary asks the president to enforce the court order and escort him out. The president refuses to, so the Secretary leaves. Does the president have the authority to do that? I believe he was in the wrong. By the way, alcohol is also served at these meetings

The answer under RONR depends on the type of meeting, the status of the member, and the assembly which was meeting, as follows:

• Business meeting, individual is a member of the assembly. The individual has a right as a member to be present. The President could not order the member from the meeting hall. The assembly could order the member from the meeting hall, but only if he became disorderly.
• Business meeting, individual is not a member of the assembly. The individual is treated as a "non-member," notwithstanding that he is a member of the organization. The President could order the non-member from the meeting hall, but only if he became disorderly. The assembly could order the non-member from the meeting hall for any reason.
• Non-business meeting (such as a social event). The rules of RONR have no bearing on the case, as they apply only to conduct in business meetings.

Additionally, depending on the nature of the events which led to the restraining order and the character of the society, disciplinary action may also be appropriate. If the member's rights are suspended as a result of disciplinary procedures, he would essentially be treated as a "non-member" for purposes of the situations detailed above. Read RONR, 10th ed., Ch. XX and any relevant portions of your Bylaws thoroughly before initiating disciplinary procedures.

How the laws of the state (regarding the court order) apply here is a question for an attorney. The fact that alcohol is served at the meetings has no parliamentary relevance. Whether it has any legal relevance is also a question for an attorney. It is also possible that the rules of your organization have bearing on this situation, which is a matter for the society to interpret.

Assuming that we are talking about a Board meeting, if this other member is a member of the Board, then he/she has a legal right under RONR to be at the meeting, thus the President was correct.

I agree with this response if you strike the word "legal." Nothing in RONR grants legal rights to anyone, as RONR is not the law. If the member does have a legal right to attend the meeting (which is quite possible), this would be because of applicable law, not the rules of RONR.

I would go with David's suggestion above and suggest to the Secretary that he/she contacts the police if required.

I agree, and this is likely the best course of action even if the assembly has the power to remove him. (RONR, 10th ed., pg. 629, lines 12-16)

[Rev Ed]

I agree with this response if you strike the word "legal." Nothing in RONR grants legal rights to anyone, as RONR is not the law. If the member does have a legal right to attend the meeting (which is quite possible), this would be because of applicable law, not the rules of RONR.

Following "the rules" is doing what is legal. Rules are rules, regardless of who "created" the rules.

[Gary Novosielski]

Following "the rules" is doing what is legal. Rules are rules, regardless of who "created" the rules.

Actually, following the law is doing what is legal.

Breaking the law makes an act unlawful. Breaking a rule only makes it unruly.

[hmtcastle]

Actually, following the law is doing what is legal.

Breaking the law makes an act unlawful. Breaking a rule only makes it unruly.

And breaking a bylaw?

While I understand why most on this forum shun the word "legal" like the proverbial plague, there is such a thing as "parliamentary law" and, therefore, such a thing as being parliamentarily illegal.

Just as there are illegal moves in chess and football.

[Gary Novosielski]

And breaking a bylaw?

Unbylawful?

While I understand why most on this forum shun the word "legal" like the proverbial plague, there is such a thing as "parliamentary law" and, therefore, such a thing as being parliamentarily illegal.

Just as there are illegal moves in chess and football.

And illegal votes by legal voters. From which we learn that sometimes the proverbial plague cannot be avoided.

[Josh Martin]

Following "the rules" is doing what is legal.

Well, that's not really accurate, but I'm glad to know it was merely a problem of wording and not one of understanding.

I normally wouldn't be such a stickler over the use of the word "legal," as I understand that many people use it to refer to an action which is in violation of a code of rules. In a thread which involves questions of "real" law as well, however, I fear that its use may be misleading, especially in a phrase like "legal right."

[Rev Ed]

And breaking a bylaw?

While I understand why most on this forum shun the word "legal" like the proverbial plague, there is such a thing as "parliamentary law" and, therefore, such a thing as being parliamentarily illegal.

Just as there are illegal moves in chess and football.

Or good someone who understands what I was saying.

[Gary Novosielski]

Or good someone who understands what I was saying.

I understood what you were saying; I just disagreed with it.