succesion of officer

[Guest billy]

I am a member ofan orginazation which holds elections in november and the officers elect take office on second weds in january,I am currently the groups secretary and its vice chair elect,the person who was elected to be the chair person decided to step down before taking office,a special election is being held on the day that the new officers were to take office/I was told according to Roberts Rules i must resing my postion of vice chair elect to stand for the postion of chair,is this accurate, I read article XI #62 and did not interpet it that way,am I incorrect

[Rob Elsman]

I am a member ofan orginazation which holds elections in november and the officers elect take office on second weds in january,I am currently the groups secretary and its vice chair elect,the person who was elected to be the chair person decided to step down before taking office,a special election is being held on the day that the new officers were to take office/I was told according to Roberts Rules i must resing my postion of vice chair elect to stand for the postion of chair,is this accurate, I read article XI #62 and did not interpet it that way,am I incorrect

I'm not clear. Are you saying the winner of the election declined the office as soon as he found out he had won, or are you saying he first accepted the office and then later changed his mind?

[David A Foulkes]

I believe the answers to your questions are "no" and "no". And I believe what you're asking is do you have to decline the position of vice-chair (elect) to be considered for the position of Chair.

No rule in RONR prevents any person from holding multiple offices, although the bylaws may, and it is often suggested here that it is not a good idea. You are already Secretary, and you don't say if some other member has been elected to that position (secretary-elect), so we'll assume so, and wait for your return to clarify.

So, you are the vice-chair-elect, and if you want to be considered for chair, and you do not get elected, you would retain the vice-chair position. Your rules (or others governing you) have have something different to say about it.

[Rob Elsman]

I believe the answers to your questions are "no" and "no". And I believe what you're asking is do you have to decline the position of vice-chair (elect) to be considered for the position of Chair.

No rule in RONR prevents any person from holding multiple offices, although the bylaws may, and it is often suggested here that it is not a good idea. You are already Secretary, and you don't say if some other member has been elected to that position (secretary-elect), so we'll assume so, and wait for your return to clarify.

So, you are the vice-chair-elect, and if you want to be considered for chair, and you do not get elected, you would retain the vice-chair position. Your rules (or others governing you) have have something different to say about it.

Hang on, there, Mr. Foulkes! I can well imagine a set of facts where our vice chairman elect will automatically take office as chairman on the second Wednesday of January. Right now, I think we're just a little short of facts to be able to say one way or the other.

[David A Foulkes]

Hang on, there, Mr. Foulkes! I can well imagine a set of facts where our vice chairman elect will automatically take office as chairman on the second Wednesday of January. Right now, I think we're just a little short of facts to be able to say one way or the other.

Most always a given with postings. But yes, in reconsidering this issue, I now wonder if Billy (as the vice-chair-elect) hasn't already ascended to chair-elect? And he now has a vacancy in vice-chair? I'm fuzzy on it, and still sans livre.

[Rob Elsman]

Most always a given with postings. But yes, in reconsidering this issue, I now wonder if Billy (as the vice-chair-elect) hasn't already ascended to chair-elect? And he now has a vacancy in vice-chair? I'm fuzzy on it, and still sans livre.

Well, I had hoped Billy might provide us with some more facts, but since he hasn't come back, I'll supply some and make a stab at a reply, since I have to go stir up some grub.

My guess is that the chairman-elect did not decline the office immediately when he found out that he had won the election. Therefore, the election is complete. Assuming that the chairman-elect submits his resignation, and it is accepted before the second Wednesday of January, the vice chairman-elect will take office as chairman and an election will need to be held as soon as possible to fill the vacancy in the office of vice chairman, previous notice of the election being required for validity.

For the record, though, there are a lot of guesses and assumptions in all that. There are different possibilities with different sets of guesses and assumptions.

[hmtcastle]

For the record, though, there are a lot of guesses and assumptions in all that. There are different possibilities with different sets of guesses and assumptions.

I think those are reasonable assumptions.

While RONR assumes that successful candidates will take office as soon as their election is complete, the practice of delaying this for a period of time is not uncommon. It may be only until the election meeting is adjourned or it may be weeks, or even months later. As this question comes up on this forum with some frequency, I wonder if it's a situation that might be more explicitly addressed by RONR (or, at least, the FAQs).

[Gary Novosielski]

I am a member of an organization which holds elections in November and the officers elect take office on second weds in January,I am currently the groups secretary and its vice chair elect,the person who was elected to be the chair person decided to step down before taking office,a special election is being held on the day that the new officers were to take office/I was told according to Roberts Rules i must resign my position of vice chair elect to stand for the position of chair,is this accurate, I read article XI #62 and did not interpet it that way,am I incorrect

No, you do not need to resign any position to run for another position. If after the special election you need to decide between the two positions, you can certainly do so at that time, with much better information than you have now.

[Guest Billy]

forgive me for not being more clear,the assumption that the gentleman who was elected chair and after 2 weeks decided not to take postion is correct as is the assumption that there is now a secretary elect

the bylaws only allow for the vice chair to assume the postion of chair after the officers have taken office

the situation at hand has never arisen before,the current chair presiding states by roberts rules that i must resign from vice chair elect to stand for chair and in which if i loose election than i have lost both postion's so the crux of my question really is under roberts rules as vice chair elect must i resign my post to stand for another postion or do i need not resign stand for post and if not elected maintain the post i orgnally was chosen for/and if I am elected then is all that need be done is to just then hold an immediate election to fill the postion of vice chair?

[David A Foulkes]

....the current chair presiding states by roberts rules that i must resign from vice chair elect to stand for chair...

And now you are going to ask the current chair to show you where in RONR it says this. But don't hang around waiting too long, because it isn't going to happen.

[Tim Wynn]

forgive me for not being more clear,the assumption that the gentleman who was elected chair and after 2 weeks decided not to take postion is correct as is the assumption that there is now a secretary elect

the bylaws only allow for the vice chair to assume the postion of chair after the officers have taken office

the situation at hand has never arisen before,the current chair presiding states by roberts rules that i must resign from vice chair elect to stand for chair and in which if i loose election than i have lost both postion's so the crux of my question really is under roberts rules as vice chair elect must i resign my post to stand for another postion or do i need not resign stand for post and if not elected maintain the post i orgnally was chosen for/and if I am elected then is all that need be done is to just then hold an immediate election to fill the postion of vice chair?

The vice-chariman automatically becomes chairman upon a vacancy in the office of chairman. See RONR(10th ed.), p. 442, l. 2-7.* However, you have some waiting to do, since the would-be chairman is not chairman yet, and you are not vice-chairman, yet.

*See RONR(10th ed.), p. 432, l. 28 - p. 433, l. 2, to help clear up any debate over the use of the terms "chairman" and "president."

[David A Foulkes]

I believe page 441 is somewhat applicable, although it refers to a bylaw-designated position of president-elect. Specifically, it "is also customary to provide in the bylaws for some method to fill a vacancy in the office of president-elect, should one occur between elections. It is important to consider these provisions with great care." (ll. 21-25)

Although this deals with a president-elect who is elected "one entire term in advance" (l. 2), I think the applicability to Billy's circumstance is strong. I offer this mostly for Billy's benefit, with the encouragement of amending the bylaws as appropriate to deal with this circumstance should it arise again.

[Gary Novosielski]

forgive me for not being more clear,the assumption that the gentleman who was elected chair and after 2 weeks decided not to take postion is correct as is the assumption that there is now a secretary elect

the bylaws only allow for the vice chair to assume the postion of chair after the officers have taken office

the situation at hand has never arisen before,the current chair presiding states by roberts rules that i must resign from vice chair elect to stand for chair and in which if i loose election than i have lost both postion's so the crux of my question really is under roberts rules as vice chair elect must i resign my post to stand for another postion or do i need not resign stand for post and if not elected maintain the post i orgnally was chosen for/and if I am elected then is all that need be done is to just then hold an immediate election to fill the postion of vice chair?

No, it was clear what you meant.

My answer stands. You do not need to resign, decline, withdraw, or otherwise abandon your status as secretary [vice-chair]-elect in order to run for the office of chair/chairman/president in the upcoming special election.

There is absolutely no rule in RONR that would require you to do this. Unless whoever is making this claim can show you a rule to this effect in your bylaws, or some other authority that would supersede the rules in RONR, he's wrong.

If he claims that the rule is contained in RONR, he should be pointed at and made fun of.

[Gary Novosielski]

I believe page 441 is somewhat applicable, although it refers to a bylaw-designated position of president-elect. Specifically, it "is also customary to provide in the bylaws for some method to fill a vacancy in the office of president-elect, should one occur between elections. It is important to consider these provisions with great care." (ll. 21-25)

Although this deals with a president-elect who is elected "one entire term in advance" (l. 2), I think the applicability to Billy's circumstance is strong. I offer this mostly for Billy's benefit, with the encouragement of amending the bylaws as appropriate to deal with this circumstance should it arise again.

Well, we could argue the applicability of that passage to the current situation (I would argue in the negative.*), but Billy's organization has apparently decided to handle the situation by calling a special election. And I believe that's appropriate.

But the question was not about the proper method of filling the so-called vacancy. Rather, it was--given that a special election is being held--does he need to decline the office of vice chair, to which he was elected, in order to seek the office of chair in the special election.

And I think it's abundantly clear that he does not.

__________

* The reason I don't think the citation applies is that it refers to the case where someone has been elected to the office of President-Elect, has taken possession of that office, and then vacates it.

It would not apply to the case of a person elected to the office of president who belatedly declines the office while still president-elect, any more than it would apply to the case of a person elected to the office of President-Elect who belatedly declines the office while still President-Elect-elect. In neither of those cases has anyone actually taken office, so they have never been in a position to create a vacancy.

[Tim Wynn]

Well, we could argue the applicability of that passage to the current situation...

You two do that. I'll watch.

[David A Foulkes]

Well, ...

It would not apply to the case of a person elected to the office of president who belatedly declines the office while still president-elect, any more than it would apply to the case of a person elected to the office of President-Elect who belatedly declines the office while still President-Elect-elect. In neither of those cases has anyone actually taken office, so they have never been in a position to create a vacancy.

Understood and fair enough, although there is I think still the question of whether the chair-elect declined the office (creating an incomplete election), or in fact accepted it (creating a complete election) and then (some time later) "resigned" And, as Billy noted in a follow-up, "the bylaws only allow for the vice chair to assume the postion [sic] of chair after the officers have taken office." So it seems that the special election for the office of chair may be misguided in that the vacancy would apparently arise in the vice-chair on Jan 12.

Still and all, you are correct -- he did indeed ask a specific question that has been answered, and that's really what's important here.

You two do that. I'll watch.

Reminds of a favorite Firesign Theater line.

[Gary Novosielski]

Understood and fair enough, although there is I think still the question of whether the chair-elect declined the office (creating an incomplete election), or in fact accepted it (creating a complete election) and then (some time later) "resigned"

Yes, that's a fair question, and one whose answer could certainly be made clearer (hopefully in the 11th edition). The 10th edition uses the word "immediately" when referring to declining an office and thereby creating an incomplete election--either immediately after the vote, if present; or immediately on being informed of the vote, if not.

But the consensus here in the forum (which has drawn no detectable Wrath) seems to be that vacancy-filling provisions that apply to someone leaving office cannot be properly applied to one who simply never arrived.

And, as Billy noted in a follow-up, "the bylaws only allow for the vice chair to assume the postion [sic] of chair after the officers have taken office." So it seems that the special election for the office of chair may be misguided in that the vacancy would apparently arise in the vice-chair on Jan 12.

I don't think it seems misguided at all. The bylaws as paraphrased seem to apply to a true vacancy, whereas this situation is more in the nature of "one who simply never arrived". But you're correct that this is not a crystal-clear case of an incomplete election either, because of the untimely declining of the office. Given the arguable ambiguity, it seems appropriate to me that the assembly itself should interpret its current situation and determine the right way to handle it. A special election seems to solve the problem without stepping into either gopher hole.

"You two do that. I'll watch." Reminds of a favorite Firesign Theater line.

As a fan myself, I'm at a loss. What line?

[David A Foulkes]

As a fan myself, I'm at a loss. What line?

Fearful of the Wrath, I'll send it to you off-line.

[hmtcastle]

Fearful of the Wrath, I'll send it to you off-line.

Skip ahead to 7:58.

[Gary Novosielski]

Skip ahead to 7:58.

"Hot dog! Groat cakes again"?

[Rob Elsman]

forgive me for not being more clear,the assumption that the gentleman who was elected chair and after 2 weeks decided not to take postion is correct as is the assumption that there is now a secretary elect

the bylaws only allow for the vice chair to assume the postion of chair after the officers have taken office

the situation at hand has never arisen before,the current chair presiding states by roberts rules that i must resign from vice chair elect to stand for chair and in which if i loose election than i have lost both postion's so the crux of my question really is under roberts rules as vice chair elect must i resign my post to stand for another postion or do i need not resign stand for post and if not elected maintain the post i orgnally was chosen for/and if I am elected then is all that need be done is to just then hold an immediate election to fill the postion of vice chair?

No rule in RONR requires an officer to resign his office to stand for another one.

[Guest billy]

Thank you all very much,for your interpretations,I would like to give you one last nugget to consider this is verbatim from the bylaws'vice chair will assume the chairpersons responsibilities in his/her absence' now using the

Definition of ABSENT

1

: not present or attending : missing

2

: not existing : lacking <danger in a situation where power is absent — M. H. Trytten>

3

[Gary Novosielski]

Thank you all very much,for your interpretations,I would like to give you one last nugget to consider this is verbatim from the bylaws'vice chair will assume the chairpersons responsibilities in his/her absence' now using the

Definition of ABSENT

1

: not present or attending : missing

2

: not existing : lacking <danger in a situation where power is absent — M. H. Trytten>

3

Nuggety goodness, but probably not applicable to this situation, where the characters in question are not yet the chair and/or vice chair.

[Guest billy]

clarification: the person stood for the position of chair accepted the remaining positions were then also filled completing the election and filling all positions for the year 2011,this was done in November ,in December before the groups regular buisness meeting as per custom a meeting of the current and past officers takes place,this particular meeting main item on the agenda aside from the pending buisness at hand was to orientate the incoming officers the gentleman in question was at the meeting and decided to step down in between that meeting and the buisness meeting itself with the whole body

[David A Foulkes]

Billy, in the future, do you think it's possibly you could start using periods? You know, that punctuation dot at the end of sentences. And perhaps a few more uppercase letters, say.... at the beginning of sentences (after the period preceding). Your run-on sentences are not impossible to digest, but require more effort than should be necessary. It would just be .... well, nicer.

Now, your question (do you have to step down as vice-chair to stand for chair) has been answered, and it's "no". Ask whoever tells you otherwise to prove it to you.