Place to stand while in debate

[mikalac]

Our owner meeting will be in a large room with many owners present. There are no microphones in use. I always sit in the front row because of my hearing loss.

 

If I address the chair directly from my chair, owners toward the rear of the room won't be able to hear me. If an owner shouts, "I can't hear!" I will ignore him/her. If the chair insists that I turn around and repeat my statement to the owners, I will gladly comply. But if the chair insists that I move to another place where the owners can hear me, would it be in order for me to insist that I remain standing at where I sit and address my statement to him while facing the rear so that the owners can hear me?

 

Thanks for your help.

[Transpower]

You stand in front of your chair, and direct your remarks to the Chair of the meeting; it is impermissible to face the rear.  If someone yells out "I can't hear" then you should speak louder!  

[Guest Nancy N.]

You stand in front of your chair, and direct your remarks to the Chair of the meeting; it is impermissible to face the rear. ...

 

Transpower, you got a citation for this? (Since the purpose of debate is not achieved if the assembly cannot hear the speaker, p. 43, line 16, doesn't cut it.  Nor p. 392, bottom.)

 

You will agree that if the assembly cannot hear the speakers, the deliberative process is rendered a travesty?

 

...  If someone yells out "I can't hear" then you should speak louder!  

 

Please note the second paragraph in Norm's Post 3.  This is the best you got?

[Guest Nancy N.]

Our owner meeting will be in a large room with many owners present. There are no microphones in use. I always sit in the front row because of my hearing loss.

 

If I address the chair directly from my chair, owners toward the rear of the room won't be able to hear me ...

 

What usually has been done?  What do other speakers do?  Why is this a problem now?

 

If I address the chair directly from my chair, owners toward the rear of the room won't be able to hear me. If an owner shouts, "I can't hear!" I will ignore him/her.

 

Great Steaming Cobnuts, isn't the shouter (technically disruptive, but contributing positively) giving you useful information?  Do you think it doesn't matter, or that you're better off, if some of the members don't hear you?

 

(Also.  I think such a shout is more-or-less an informal, helpful, efficient alternative to formally 1) rising, 2) declaiming "I rise to a Question of Privilege!", 3) having the chair stop the speaker who has the floor, 4) asking the shouter what his Question of Privilege, 5) having the shouter stand again, 6) [disregard grammar parallelism] the shouter says "I can't hear him", 7) the chair does something about it, like directing an usher to hunt up a megaphone for you; which, depending on what it is, Norm or someone else then raises a Point of Order to object to.  And Norm's allies stream for the exits.)

 

.... But if the chair insists that I move to another place where the owners can hear me, would it be in order for me to insist that I remain standing at where I sit and address my statement to him while facing the rear so that the owners can hear me? ...

 

Great Steaming Cobnuts, if the chair wants you to move to where the assembly can hear you, he's on your side!!

 

But yes, I don't think the chair has the authority to tell you to do what's best for you.  He's not your mommy.  You want to insist on not being heard by those you're trying to persuade , I think Robert's Rules gives you that right.  You want to do it by the rules, go on and raise a Point of Order that the chair doesn't have the authority to order you around.  And when you appeal his ruling on this, watch your allies leave in annoyance.  Or dismay.  Or disgust.

 

(There may be a subtext here, Norm, vis-a-vis your knowing that the chair, and the rest of the board, wishes to impede your efforts.  If so, I'm missing it, so I apologize for my intemperate remarks.)

 

... So I don't have to face the owners. That's good news.

 

If I haven't made it clear, this seems so perversely, insanely wrongheaded to me.  Tell me in what universe, that you or I or both might live in, could this be considered good news.

 

But if I'm ordered by the chair to face the rear, what do I cite in Robert to defend my response?

 

(Answered compendiously above, yes?)

 

Also, if I still don't speak loud enough for everyone to hear while facing the chair, and the members keep asking me to speak louder and I can't, what happens next that's in order?

 

Strictly speaking, a question of privilege, I think.  But why on Earth is this only your problem?  Are you the only speaker sitting in the front?

[Richard Brown]

Agreeing with the points and exasperation expressed by Guest Nancy N, I will only add (or perhaps restate) that if you are speaking in debate, where the purpose is to persuade the assembly to your way of thinking, why on earth would you not want the assembly to hear you????

 

If you are addressing a point of order to the chair, that is perhaps a slightly different matter:  It is most important that the chair be able to hear you.

 

If you are making a motion, it is important that everyone hear you, although if the chair is able to hear you, he should restate your motion when placing it before the assembly.  Hopefully, the members can hear him.

 

If this is a continuing problem that others, not just you, experience, then perhaps a standing rule that a sound system shall be furnished is in order.   Or maybe meet in a different facility. 

 

Just out of curiosity, how large is this room and how many people are usually in attendance?

[Richard Brown]

 

Also, if I still don't speak loud enough for everyone to hear while facing the chair, and the members keep asking me to speak louder and I can't, what happens next that's in order?

 

I would say that common sense rather than RONR needs to enter the picture at this point... if not long before this  point.

 

Off the top of my head, I can think of a few possibilities, at least a couple of which can be applied immediately.  The others could be applied at subsequent meetings.

 

For this  meeting, if members of the assembly can't hear you, I think your best two alternatives, at least when speaking in debate when it is important that the other members hear what you have to  say, you can ask permission to have the chair or the secretary or any member repeat your remarks much like a translator would do for someone who doesn't speak English.  A second option, if you know you will be speaking on a particular motion, is to prepare your remarks in advance in writing and have someone read them for you.  A third option is to try to find a place in the room....any place... where you can stand and speak and the members will be able to hear you.  A fourth option is to furnish your own portable PA system.

 

For later meetings, it may be necessary to either have a sound system of some sort of to find a different meeting place.  I doubt that there is any mechanism for you to force the group to furnish a PA system..... this strikes me as being beyond the reach of the ADA (The Americans With Disabilities  Act), but, hey, check with a lawyer if you want to.... but you are certainly free to furnish one yourself as long as the assembly consents.  You can also propose a standing rule that a PA system shall be provided at all meetings. 

 

Like Nancy,  I'm still flabbergasted that you don't want to face the members so that they can hear you if you are speaking in debate.

 

Like Nancy, I don't think there is a rule in RONR that absolutely requires that you face the chair when speaking.

 

Edited to add to the last sentence:  But, even if there is such a rule, it is a rule of order that can be suspended by a two-thirds vote or by unanimous consent.  I'm confident that if the other members can't hear you when you are on the front row, they will agree to let you stand wherever you need to stand in order for them to hear you.

[Richard Brown]

When I make a POO or Request for Info, etc., (something that the chair needs to respond to), I will address the chair. When I enter debate for my motions, I will face the rear so everyone can hear. Am I in order?

 

 

That's what I personally would recommend, but I would always start off my comments, even if it's in debate, by addressing the chair and stating something to the effect of, "Since I have a soft voice that does not carry well, with the chair's permission, I will  turn and address my remarks to the members so that they can hear me better".  Then wait  for the chair to, hopefully, say something  like, "Yes, please do".    Or you can say, "Since my voice is soft and doesn't carry well, will the chair allow me to face the members while making my remarks?"

 

 

Cavernous clubhouse lounge, 100+ in attendance. Ought to have mics. Maybe after this meeting, the Board will set up a mobile mic system.

 

Thank you for the additional information.  It seems that a sound system of some sort is in order.

[Guest Nancy N.]

Yoi!  Was there a post by Norm, at 12:21 PM, to which Richard Brown replied, that has disappeared??

 

(Richard, or anyone -- is it only me, or does it seem that Norm didn't notice anything I said in Post 3, nominally addressed to Transpower but more for the benefit of the hoi polloi in general and Norm himslef in particular?)

[Richard Brown]

Yoi!  Was there a post by Norm, at 12:21 PM, to which Richard Brown replied, that has disappeared??

 

(Richard, or anyone -- is it only me, or does it seem that Norm didn't notice anything I said in Post 3, nominally addressed to Transpower but more for the benefit of the hoi polloi in general and Norm himslef in particular?)

 

Nancy, see this thread in the "help" forum.  It seems Norm is deleting his posts.

 

http://robertsrules.forumflash.com/index.php?/topic/23100-how-to-obtain-all-posts-by-a-member/

[mikalac]

Nancy, see this thread in the "help" forum.  It seems Norm is deleting his posts.

 

http://robertsrules.forumflash.com/index.php?/topic/23100-how-to-obtain-all-posts-by-a-member/

Yeah, I deleted it because I thought the discussion was over. Sorry.

 

I found out that our Board has been following my posts here to see what I'm up to. Therefore, I thought I'd keep my ammo dry by denying them the info and letting them sweat some more. In the future, I'll wait a while longer before deleting them.

[Edgar Guest]

In the future, I'll wait a while longer before deleting them.

 

How about waiting forever. Or don't post at all. I can't see why anyone will continue to reply to posts that will be deleted (though I'm sure some will). I think you have a lot to learn about netiquette.

[Richard Brown]

How about waiting forever. Or don't post at all.

 

Or post anonymously.  However, if others in your organization are trying to see what questions you are asking, they will probably be able to figure out who you are even if you use a fake name.  Your situation is pretty unique.  

 

Edited to add:  Have you considered just hiring a parliamentarian to work with you one on one with these issues?

[mikalac]

Or post anonymously.  However, if others in your organization are trying to see what questions you are asking, they will probably be able to figure out who you are even if you use a fake name.  Your situation is pretty unique.  

 

Edited to add:  Have you considered just hiring a parliamentarian to work with you one on one with these issues?

Not a big deal for me, so don't care to go underground.

 

What? You want me to pay for advice that I can get here free just so I can work privately? You must think that I'm an airline pilot loaded with money.

[Josh Martin]

Our owner meeting will be in a large room with many owners present. There are no microphones in use. I always sit in the front row because of my hearing loss.

 

If I address the chair directly from my chair, owners toward the rear of the room won't be able to hear me. If an owner shouts, "I can't hear!" I will ignore him/her. If the chair insists that I turn around and repeat my statement to the owners, I will gladly comply. But if the chair insists that I move to another place where the owners can hear me, would it be in order for me to insist that I remain standing at where I sit and address my statement to him while facing the rear so that the owners can hear me?

 

A meeting as large as you describe really should have microphones, but I believe you can stand and face wherever you please unless the assembly has adopted a rule providing otherwise.

 

You stand in front of your chair, and direct your remarks to the Chair of the meeting; it is impermissible to face the rear.  If someone yells out "I can't hear" then you should speak louder!  

 

The rule that remarks are directed to the chair does not mean that a member must physically face the chair. Indeed, this is often impractical in large assemblies.

 

I found out that our Board has been following my posts here to see what I'm up to.

 

Good! Maybe they'll learn something about RONR.