Gary Novosielski

Again, the information concerning a quorum is not required to be in the minutes and its omission from the minutes is not improper in any way, although it is your opinion that it should be there. I have no objection to your having an opinion and expressing it, as I often do myself. But I do make a conscious effort when answering questions to state what RONR says on a topic and, if I feel the need to stray beyond that, to clearly identify my opinions as my own. In my experience, that is the common practice of the regulars here. I'm not saying I achieve that goal each and every time, but I do try to keep it in mind, as it comports best with the purpose of the forum.

See: 61:13 Although the chair has no authority to impose a penalty or to order the offending member removed from the hall, the assembly has that power. It should be noted in this connection that in any case of an offense against the assembly occurring in a meeting, there is no need for a formal trial provided that any penalty is imposed promptly after the breach (cf. 23:5), since the witnesses are all present and make up the body that is to determine the penalty. I think I am safe in saying that four months later is other than promptly.

Again, RONR disagrees with you. See: 48:6 The use by the secretary of a recording device can be of great benefit in preparing the minutes, but a transcription from it should never be used as the minutes themselves.

I'm curious why you believe the chair should rule the point well taken. What possible justification can there be to overturn a three-year-old election?

Clearly or not, it isn't me you disagree with, it's RONR. See the sample minutes at 48:8 and note that there is no notation of a quorum being present. The only mention of attendance is the fact that the president and secretary are present. Yet the assumption that a quorum is present is perfectly valid. Regarding burden of proof, see 40:12, which says in relevant part: Because of the difficulty likely to be encountered in determining exactly how long the meeting has been without a quorum in such cases, a point of order relating to the absence of a quorum is generally not permitted to affect prior action; but upon clear and convincing proof, such a point of order can be given effect retrospectively by a ruling of the presiding officer, subject to appeal (24). As was explained to me when I was a newbie here, this forum seeks to inform visitors what RONR says, not what we think it should have said.

While a video or audio recording could aid in the preparation of the minutes, the recording is not the minutes, and so does not serve as an official record of how someone voted.

I'm afraid you are pretty far off base. RONR has no requirement that the presence of a quorum must be documented in the minutes. If there was not a quorum, that fact would be noted in the minutes, if only to explain the fact that no business was conducted. And the burden of proof is solely on the party claiming a lack of a quorum, not on the chair or anyone else. Without "clear and convincing proof" that a quorum was not present, any point of order to that effect is not well taken.

I'm not sure you have it quite right yet. There is no need for you to raise a point of order, since you are not alleging that rules were broken. There is apparently a member, not the chair, who is complaining about the election three years ago. Unless this member raises a point of order he has no right to complain how things were handled. If he complains during a meeting his remarks should be ruled out of order. If he does raise a point of order, the chair should rule the point not well taken, as it is stunningly untimely, and no continuing breach exists at this point. In the unlikely event that the chair rules the point well taken, you would then raise an Appeal, which requires a second, is debatable to a limited extent, and to overrule the chair's decision requires a majority in the negative to the question: "Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?"

No, RONR will not have an answer to your question, since it is, at this point a legal matter. Check with your board attorney for advice on how to proceed.

Meh. 🥱

If the rules in RONR apply, individual members may not prefer charges against other members, which can only be done by an investigatory committee. So if you have custom rules on discipline you must follow those, and if you do not, you must follow the ones in RONR Chapter XX, which prohibits this practice. But presuming someone is properly found guilty of some charge, the vote threshold will usually be at least a majority and in some cases a two-third vote, depending on the penalty.

The body that is meeting sets the rules for this sort of thing, by majority vote. RONR neither permits nor prohibits the practice. The board controls its own meetings. But apart from RONR, there are state laws that vary widely from state to state about recording people who have or have not not consented or are or are not not made aware of the recording, which is a legal matter beyond the scope of RONR.

The member will be disappointed to learn that if the rules in RONR apply, even if he were right that the nomination of officers was somehow incorrect, his remedy clock ran out three years ago. First of all, complaining is not a form of objection recognized by RONR. In fact, complaining about rulings is not even allowed except by the raising of a Point of Order or Appeal. And a point of order about nominations three years ago is beyond untimely. It is positively superannuated—and therefore not well taken. Point this person toward RONR 12th ed. 23:5 Timeliness Requirement for a Point of Order. And ignore any subsequent complaints.

1. No 2. No 3. No *. Yes

Perhaps, in this specific case, but the original statement is simply the general phrasing on adoption of a parliamentary authority, but omitting the reference to Special Rules of Order. In this case, since RONR itself says that it yields to both bylaws and special rules of order, I think the omission does not create an obstacle to creating special rules of order. But I agree that it would be wise to amend the statement to use the recommended language.

If it is a third edition of a slimmer volume, it sounds like it might be Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised in Brief. ? But if not, and it is a completely different work, I would only say that a textbook on parliamentary procedure is probably not a good candidate for a parliamentary authority. There is a difference between a book that is a parliamentary authority, and a book about a parliamentary authority. If you are looking for the only authorized current edition of Robert's Rules, it is called Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 12th edition. Not all books with Robert in the title are created equal.

If it had said "guidebook" instead of "authority" I might agree with you, but it is clearly stated as your parliamentary authority. It might seem like a minefield, but knowing what book to use means the mines are all clearly marked. There's nothing vague about it. The good news is that according to the rules in Robert's, small board meetings have a more relaxed set of rules that do not require the formality of larger meetings, so Robert's Rules is still your friend. If you're unfamiliar with the rules, start by buying a copy of Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised in Brief, 3rd edition. It's a good introduction to parliamentary procedure without getting overly technical. It contains citations to The (full) Book, Robert's Rules of Order Newly Revised, 12th edition, which is at this point your actual parliamentary authority.

It sounds like you held your meeting, and the meeting is now done. "People saying things" is not a method of invalidating a meeting, if the rules in RONR apply. You might need to call another meeting to initiate disciplinary proceedings against those who refuse to carry out the will of the membership.

Actually, they do present an answer. They say that the term of office is one year. So to achieve a second term would require reëlection.

Well, perhaps they are, but with all due respect to those members, I'm forced to wonder: So what? I guess they could raise a Point of Order at the next membership meeting, but I don't see a path to prevailing on that allegation, given that they are presumptively in the minority.

The Standard Order of Business comprises the following headings: 1) Reading and Approval of Minutes 2) Reports of Officers, Boards, and Standing Committees 3) Reports of Special (Select or Ad Hoc) Committees 4) Special Orders 5) Unfinished Business and General Orders 6) New Business In organizations that have adopted RONR as their parliamentary authority, that hold their regular meetings as frequently as quarterly, and have not adopted a special order of business, this series of headings is their prescribed order of business. [see RONR (12th ed.) 41:5 ff.]

Very true, but there is also a provision that if the chair fails to (properly) call the meeting then the members can do so themselves, yes? Am I reading that right? If so, then the members should call the meeting and hold the meeting. If the president (and VP) choose not to attend, the members should simply elect a presiding officer pro tempore, and proceed with the business for which the meeting was called. Neither the president nor the board can declare a valid meeting of the membership invalid, since the power to determine whether the meeting comports with the bylaws is a decision that only the membership itself can make.

The call of a special meeting must include purpose of the meeting. If the president does not include the stated purpose, then the president has not "called" the meeting as demanded by the bylaws. Any assertion to the contrary is patently absurd, and, in my view, worthy of significant disciplinary action against the president.

Non-members have no rights to raise points of order at a meeting of another body.

I've seen it too, and I did what I could to use the proper procedure of demanding a separate debate and vote on some items. Spoiler alert—the RONR procedure worked better. 😎