Guest P. Sterle Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:29 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:29 PM I am president of a fraternity, and during our debate members will show agreement with the speaker by snapping or clapping spoons against the table. I despise this because of the practices origins. It started with a sorority and blah blah blah. Anyway, is it anywhere in RONR that you can't show agreement during debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tctheatc Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:39 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:39 PM This sounds very familiar, as within a few days ago. If it's a disruption to the meeting, a call for decorum is needed. It's hard to stop people from showing agreement. What if they nod heads or smile? How stoic are we supposed to be?I prefer the shouts of "REVRUN!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:48 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:48 PM This sounds very familiar, as within a few days ago.Three days ago, to be precise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:50 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:50 PM Three days ago, to be precise.I reckon he didn't like what we said the first time around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:54 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:54 PM I am president of a fraternity . . . It started with a sorority . . .'Twas ever thus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:56 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 at 09:56 PM Don't eat the apples. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted February 20, 2011 at 10:00 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 at 10:00 PM 'Twas ever thus.Kinda sad that the practice is looked down upon just because a sorority started it. IMO, frats and sororities go together like apple pie and ice cream or bacon and eggs. Having the Brothers and Sisters together makes the funnest parties! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 20, 2011 at 10:34 PM Report Share Posted February 20, 2011 at 10:34 PM Anyway, is it anywhere in RONR that you can't show agreement during debate.No. Unless the snapping or clapping spoons is so loud that it is disruptive to the meeting, deal with it.Kinda sad that the practice is looked down upon just because a sorority started it.Well, we don't know that. Maybe the reason he despises the practice is somewhere in the "blah blah blah." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Novosielski Posted February 21, 2011 at 12:26 AM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 12:26 AM Maybe the reason he despises the practice is somewhere in the "blah blah blah."Is that anything like Yadda, yadda, yadda? "So, I meet these two sorority sisters, and yadda, yadda, yadda, long-story-short, they snapped their spoons against the table." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest P. Sterle Posted February 21, 2011 at 12:52 AM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 12:52 AM Three days ago it didn't tell me that it posted. It said I messed up on the code so it refused to post... I thought. Anyway, the practice is not frowned upon becaue it's from a sorority, in fact we are a coed fraternity. Thanks for yalls help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmtcastle Posted February 21, 2011 at 10:44 AM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 10:44 AM . . . in fact we are a coed fraternity.How is that different from a co-ed sorority? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest P. Sterle Posted February 21, 2011 at 01:19 PM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 01:19 PM I've never heard of a coed sorority, I'm sure there are some though. All I was saying is that I don't really like the spoon thing or the snapping, and was hoping there was something in RONR to help me out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted February 21, 2011 at 01:52 PM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 01:52 PM I've never heard of a coed sorority, I'm sure there are some though. All I was saying is that I don't really like the spoon thing or the snapping, and was hoping there was something in RONR to help me out.Well, there isn't much I'm afraid, especially as spoon-clapping did not come into fashion until the 1950s, after the General's unfortunate passing.There is reference on page 382 (lines 1-12) that has been made on your other posting (and now here) that discusses handling situations that "disturb the assembly". The catch in all this (your posting) is that it seems the assembly is the body doing the disturbing, and you seem to be the only one disturbed by their behavior. Other references to control of the hall, and breaches of decorum, don't seem very applicable. They cover mostly individual member's misbehavior, and such things as controlling noise, heat and such as regards the comfort of the assembly and ability to hear.So, personal curiosity forces me here.... before you were elected president (assuming you attended the meetings), was spoon-clapping in fashion? Has it been ongoing for some time now, a long-standing fraternity tradition? I'm not seeking a way to justify this behavior, just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kim Goldsworthy Posted February 21, 2011 at 02:56 PM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 02:56 PM Well, there isn't much I'm afraid, especially as spoon-clapping did not come into fashion until the 1950s, after the General's unfortunate passing.Sure.The index of the 1st edition shows "forks" and "knives"; but nary a word on "spoons". The rule on "flatware" in the 2nd edition may be persuasive, if not binding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted February 21, 2011 at 04:24 PM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 04:24 PM I am president of a fraternity, and during our debate members will show agreement with the speaker by snapping or clapping spoons against the table. I despise this because of the practices origins. It started with a sorority and blah blah blah. Anyway, is it anywhere in RONR that you can't show agreement during debate.I confirm my previous reply to this same question several days ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted February 21, 2011 at 05:00 PM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 05:00 PM I confirm my previous reply to this same question several days ago.Just to be picky, that section does include "The key words here are disturb the assembly." If the "assembly" (as a larger unit) is the body "creating" the "disturbance", I'd think that unless a majority of members share in the president's view, despising the practice, it becomes an iffy situation. If another member were to raise a Point of Order asking the spoon-clappers to cease and desist, and the chair ruled it well taken, upon Appeal I'd suspect the chair's decision would be overturned. Of course, we have no clear sense of how many members are involved, on either side of the argument, save for the president. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob Elsman Posted February 21, 2011 at 05:11 PM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 05:11 PM Just to be picky, that section does include "The key words here are disturb the assembly." If the "assembly" (as a larger unit) is the body "creating" the "disturbance", I'd think that unless a majority of members share in the president's view, despising the practice, it becomes an iffy situation. If another member were to raise a Point of Order asking the spoon-clappers to cease and desist, and the chair ruled it well taken, upon Appeal I'd suspect the chair's decision would be overturned. Of course, we have no clear sense of how many members are involved, on either side of the argument, save for the president.As with so much in parliamentary practice, it is a matter of balance. If the spoon-clapping seriously inhibits the transaction of business, effectively keeps a member from exercising his right to speak in debate, or prevents the members from hearing the speaker, then the presiding officer has the duty of his office to restore order. See RONR (10th ed.), p. 434, ll. 18-20.Slightly edited to add, "...or prevents...hearing the speaker...". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David A Foulkes Posted February 21, 2011 at 05:34 PM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 05:34 PM As with so much in parliamentary practice, it is a matter of balance. If the spoon-clapping seriously inhibits the transaction of business, effectively keeps a member from exercising his right to speak in debate, or prevents the members from hearing the speaker, then the presiding officer has the duty of his office to restore order. See RONR (10th ed.), p. 434, ll. 18-20.Slightly edited to add, "...or prevents...hearing the speaker...".Agreed in full. Although so far, what we've seen amounts to:I'm against this, as I'm the president. andI despise this because of the practices origins. so I just think the president will have some hefty opposition, as (apparently) a minority of one. Not to justify the practice, nor to disempower the chair, but simply to note (for his benefit primarily) the difficulty he faces in enforcing the rules of order during a meeting. I wish him luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted February 21, 2011 at 09:37 PM Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 at 09:37 PM How is that different from a co-ed sorority?For whatever reason, co-ed Greek letter organizations are generally called fraternities rather than sororities.All I was saying is that I don't really like the spoon thing or the snapping, and was hoping there was something in RONR to help me out.Nope. You can't really do anything about it as President unless it's disturbing the assembly, such as if it was so loud people can't hear a speaker. If there are other members of the fraternity who dislike it, you might suggest that they try to adopt a standing rule barring the practice. Such a rule would require a majority vote for adoption, and as President you would be obligated to enforce the rule. If it's only you or a small group that dislikes the practice, I'm afraid you're out of luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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