dismissing a committee

[lptwigg]

Hi all! I am hoping you can help me out with the following two scenarios.

At our last meeting, my motion was referred to committee, and I amended the referral motion to direct the committee to bring forward a recommendation at our next meeting. I see two possible outcomes, and I want to be prepared.

1) The committee brings forward a recommendation that will not be my motion, but rather an alternate. Once that motion is brought forward, it will either be passed or defeated. Once action is taken, can I once again bring forward the motion that was actually referred, since I expect the alternate will not be mutually exclusive with the original motion?

2) If the committee does not present a recommendation, then I will move to dismiss the committee. Assuming the dismissal passes, then am I allowed to move the original motion that was referred to the committee because of the dismissal?

Thank you for any help you can give me!

[Tim Wynn]

Hi all! I am hoping you can help me out with the following two scenarios.

At our last meeting, my motion was referred to committee, and I amended the referral motion to direct the committee to bring forward a recommendation at our next meeting. I see two possible outcomes, and I want to be prepared.

1) The committee brings forward a recommendation that will not be my motion, but rather an alternate. Once that motion is brought forward, it will either be passed or defeated. Once action is taken, can I once again bring forward the motion that was actually referred, since I expect the alternate will not be mutually exclusive with the original motion?

2) If the committee does not present a recommendation, then I will move to dismiss the committee. Assuming the dismissal passes, then am I allowed to move the original motion that was referred to the committee because of the dismissal?

Thank you for any help you can give me!

When the committee reports, your motion will come before the assembly.

If the committee recommends an amendment, the reporting member should move its adoption, and the amendment will be considered first.

[Tim Wynn]

When the committee is discharged, the referred motion comes before the assembly at that point.

[Gary Novosielski]

Hi all! I am hoping you can help me out with the following two scenarios.

At our last meeting, my motion was referred to committee, and I amended the referral motion to direct the committee to bring forward a recommendation at our next meeting. I see two possible outcomes, and I want to be prepared.

1) The committee brings forward a recommendation that will not be my motion, but rather an alternate. Once that motion is brought forward, it will either be passed or defeated. Once action is taken, can I once again bring forward the motion that was actually referred, since I expect the alternate will not be mutually exclusive with the original motion?

Well, the committee recommendation, if any, would be in the nature of an amendment to your original motion, so if the recommended amendment (even if it is a total substitute) should fail, your motion just as it was when referred, will be before the assembly.

2) If the committee does not present a recommendation, then I will move to [discharge] the committee. Assuming the [discharge motion] passes, then am I allowed to move the original motion that was referred to the committee because of the dismissal?

Yes.

Well, once a committee is discharged from consideration of a question, that question is back before the body automatically. And because the committee failed to report by a the designated date, a motion to discharge would require only a majority vote, not the normally requisite two-thirds.

[lptwigg]

When the committee reports, your motion will come before the assembly.

If the committee recommends an amendment, the reporting member should move its adoption, and the amendment will be considered first.

Thanks - this helps a lot!

What if... I want to amend my original motion? Once it comes to the floor, am I allowed to amend it?

[lptwigg]

Well, the committee recommendation, if any, would be in the nature of an amendment to your original motion, so if the recommended amendment (even if it is a total substitute) should fail, your motion just as it was when referred, will be before the assembly.

Ah, I see - ok, that makes it clearer for me. Thanks!

Well, once a committee is discharged from consideration of a question, that question is back before the body automatically. And because the committee failed to report by a the designated date, a motion to discharge would require only a majority vote, not the normally requisite two-thirds.

This scenario is now looking less likely. I think what will happen is that the committee will recommend an alternative. But, nonetheless, this is great information for the future!

Thanks!

[lptwigg]

Well, the committee recommendation, if any, would be in the nature of an amendment to your original motion, so if the recommended amendment (even if it is a total substitute) should fail, your motion just as it was when referred, will be before the assembly.

Please forgive me for asking a further question on this.

Based on what I think will happen, the bylaws committee will recommend that my amendment not be adopted. Then it will recommend an amendment to a different section of the bylaws.

So, if they recommend that my amendment not be adopted, that then needs to be voted on by the assembly, right?

Then, after that, is that when she can bring forward her own motion? And, am I able to offer an amendment to it (different than my first amendment)? What if my amendment is to a different section of the bylaws?

To be clear, let's say that the amendment she offers is to section 3. I think what we are trying to accomplish is better done by amending section 4. Can I offer my amendment of section 4 (if it really is just another route to the goal at hand), if we are talking about an amendment of section 3? Or does that become a separate amendment, that must once again be referred back to committee? [Note, at the September meeting, standing rules were passed that all motions must come from committee or the BOD, no other route is allowed except in emergency. I protested, to no avail.]

Thanks - the meeting is Tuesday (10/25) night, so any help before then is appreciated!

[Sean Hunt]

Please forgive me for asking a further question on this.

You're forgiven. If you have a copy of RONR on hand, look carefully at RONR section 51, especially pp. 523-524. These handle the situation of a committee reporting back a suggested substitute. If you don't, I strongly recommend getting at least a copy of RONR In Brief, as it looks like you should carefully read the sections on Amend, Point of Order, and Appeal at the very least.

Based on what I think will happen, the bylaws committee will recommend that my amendment not be adopted. Then it will recommend an amendment to a different section of the bylaws.

So, if they recommend that my amendment not be adopted, that then needs to be voted on by the assembly, right?

The proper thing for them to do is to recommend a substitute motion in place of yours, rather than recommending separately that yours not be adopted and that a different motion be adopted. If they do go that route, however, then a recommendation not to proceed with the motion is just that, a recommendation. The motion is thereafter treated exactly like any other motion that had not been referred to committee. The other amendment would have to be considered separately.

Then, after that, is that when she can bring forward her own motion? And, am I able to offer an amendment to it (different than my first amendment)? What if my amendment is to a different section of the bylaws?

The proper thing, regardless of the outcome of our motion, would be for the reporting member to move implementation of the recommendations. You would be free to amend this as with any other motion.

If, instead, the report recommends a substitute, then while the motion to substitute is pending, amendments to both your original motion and the committee's substitute are in order. If the substitute is adopted, it cannot be further amended except by adding to the end.

To be clear, let's say that the amendment she offers is to section 3. I think what we are trying to accomplish is better done by amending section 4. Can I offer my amendment of section 4 (if it really is just another route to the goal at hand), if we are talking about an amendment of section 3? Or does that become a separate amendment, that must once again be referred back to committee?

You may move to Amend the motion by introducing a substitute as long as it relates to the same topic as the motion you would be amending. However, if your suggested motion has already been defeated, you can't use this mechanism to bring it back before the assembly for consideration.

[Note, at the September meeting, standing rules were passed that all motions must come from committee or the BOD, no other route is allowed except in emergency. I protested, to no avail.]

Unless adopted as a special rule of order, this is an action taken in violation of the basic rights of an individual member, which include the right to make motions. If this was not properly adopted as a special rule of order, then this action is invalid and constitutes a continuing breach and you may raise a Point of Order about the matter at any time (and you should be prepared with another member to raise an Appeal); see p. 251.

I should add one more general comment about notice requirements for bylaw amendments. If notice is required for bylaw amendments, then no amendment is in order which would suggest adopting more than the notice provided for. The notice requirements apply to the committee as well; if it proposes changes that weren't provided for in your original notice, then the committee must first provide notice of what it will propose.

[Tim Wynn]

Thanks - this helps a lot!

What if... I want to amend my original motion? Once it comes to the floor, am I allowed to amend it?

When the motion is immediately pending, it is open to amendment. A proposed amendment requires a second and a majority vote. You cannot simply amend it on your own, except with unanimous consent.

[lptwigg]

You're forgiven. If you have a copy of RONR on hand, look carefully at RONR section 51, especially pp. 523-524. These handle the situation of a committee reporting back a suggested substitute. If you don't, I strongly recommend getting at least a copy of RONR In Brief, as it looks like you should carefully read the sections on Amend, Point of Order, and Appeal at the very least.

Yes, I do have a copy, of both the full on 11th edition, and also the in brief version - but at home, not at work with me. Once I get home, I promise to read the section you reference!

The proper thing for them to do is to recommend a substitute motion in place of yours, rather than recommending separately that yours not be adopted and that a different motion be adopted. If they do go that route, however, then a recommendation not to proceed with the motion is just that, a recommendation. The motion is thereafter treated exactly like any other motion that had not been referred to committee. The other amendment would have to be considered separately.

I do not expect then to do the proper thing, as they have previously demonstrated they could care less about proper procedure. However, this does help me plan for tonight.

The proper thing, regardless of the outcome of our motion, would be for the reporting member to move implementation of the recommendations. You would be free to amend this as with any other motion.

Ok, got it.

If, instead, the report recommends a substitute, then while the motion to substitute is pending, amendments to both your original motion and the committee's substitute are in order. If the substitute is adopted, it cannot be further amended except by adding to the end.

This is what I expect to happen. However, the new wrinkle is that I have decided there is actually a better way to solve the original problem that started this whole mess.

You may move to Amend the motion by introducing a substitute as long as it relates to the same topic as the motion you would be amending. However, if your suggested motion has already been defeated, you can't use this mechanism to bring it back before the assembly for consideration.

I'm ok here, since no vote has been taken on any of this, except back in Feb when my amendment was adopted. It was declined by the parent organization in August for lack of definition of a term. I reintroduced it in September with the definition added - and that is what was referred to committee since the leadership of the organization had a hand in it being declined, and does not want it to move forward, mostly because I proposed it.

The "relates to the same topic" part is EXTREMELY useful for me - because otherwise they will be saying that my new solution is out of order.

Unless adopted as a special rule of order, this is an action taken in violation of the basic rights of an individual member, which include the right to make motions. If this was not properly adopted as a special rule of order, then this action is invalid and constitutes a continuing breach and you may raise a Point of Order about the matter at any time (and you should be prepared with another member to raise an Appeal); see p. 251.

Haha. Yeah, I was the only one speaking against these rules, no, actually, there was one other fellow too, but the rest of the sheep mentality membership sat there and handed over their right to free speech, as a means to expediency. Point of Order will not help, the leadership violates RR all the time, in the interest of "using common sense." Really. I could register a complaint with the parent organization, but that type of thing is what made me a pariah last summer when I protested yet another violation - of the bylaws, which was sustained, but only got me enmity. I just don't have the energy or truthfully, support base, to follow that through. Honestly, I just want to try and get this amendment passed and then bid them all adieu.

I should add one more general comment about notice requirements for bylaw amendments. If notice is required for bylaw amendments, then no amendment is in order which would suggest adopting more than the notice provided for. The notice requirements apply to the committee as well; if it proposes changes that weren't provided for in your original notice, then the committee must first provide notice of what it will propose.

So, if I understand you correctly, the only thing that could be actually adopted tonight is the original amendment brought forward last month, as we do have a 30 days notice requirement. If I move to amend anything, it still could not be voted on until next month. How does that look during the proceedings? I move to amend, and the assembly votes to - what? Postpone the vote until next month?

Thanks so very much for all this help. You have no idea how much I appreciate it!

[lptwigg]

When the motion is immediately pending, it is open to amendment. A proposed amendment requires a second and a majority vote. You cannot simply amend it on your own, except with unanimous consent.

Hi! Thanks - I did know it would require a second and vote, I was more focussed on if it is proper to offer an amendment to something previously offered by me. Sounds like it is ok as long as the rest of the procedure is followed. This helps a lot!!

[Sean Hunt]

I do not expect then to do the proper thing, as they have previously demonstrated they could care less about proper procedure. However, this does help me plan for tonight.

This particular matter is more on of form than of actual procedure.

The "relates to the same topic" part is EXTREMELY useful for me - because otherwise they will be saying that my new solution is out of order.

See RONR pp. 136-138.

Point of Order will not help, the leadership violates RR all the time, in the interest of "using common sense."

I'm getting the sense that you're low on allies, which is not a problem that can be solved through any amount of parliamentary procedure, but if you believe that the other members will listen, then Appeal is your friend.

So, if I understand you correctly, the only thing that could be actually adopted tonight is the original amendment brought forward last month, as we do have a 30 days notice requirement. If I move to amend anything, it still could not be voted on until next month. How does that look during the proceedings? I move to amend, and the assembly votes to - what? Postpone the vote until next month?

Thanks so very much for all this help. You have no idea how much I appreciate it!

Any amendment beyond the scope of the notice is out of order. If you wanted to make such an amendment, you would have to make a motion to Postpone Definitely, and also give notice of the amendment. See pp. 307-308.

[lptwigg]

This particular matter is more on of form than of actual procedure.

See RONR pp. 136-138.

Will do - thanks!

I'm getting the sense that you're low on allies, which is not a problem that can be solved through any amount of parliamentary procedure, but if you believe that the other members will listen, then Appeal is your friend.

I have allies, but the kind that will agree in private, but then go along to get along in public. Not helpful at all. The body listened when I objected before the adoption of the standing rules. Then they voted them in. Appealing will go nowhere if they have any say. No amount of antacid can take care of the heartburn from this group, which is why except for this one amendment, which affects my local area (and other areas too) most severely, is my final act before giving up.

Any amendment beyond the scope of the notice is out of order. If you wanted to make such an amendment, you would have to make a motion to Postpone Definitely, and also give notice of the amendment. See pp. 307-308.

Thanks - will do.

I truly appreciate your assistance - I want to do this the right way, even if no one else cares - I care.

Thanks again!

[Sean Hunt]

I have allies, but the kind that will agree in private, but then go along to get along in public. Not helpful at all. The body listened when I objected before the adoption of the standing rules. Then they voted them in. Appealing will go nowhere if they have any say. No amount of antacid can take care of the heartburn from this group, which is why except for this one amendment, which affects my local area (and other areas too) most severely, is my final act before giving up.

You can always move for a motion (such as your bylaw amendment, or even the motions to amend the amendment) to be voted on by ballot. While it requires a majority vote to approve this, that may be more palatable to some members.

[Shmuel Gerber]

I do not expect then to do the proper thing, as they have previously demonstrated they could care less about proper procedure.

Ah, so there is some hope after all.

Good luck!

[lptwigg]

You can always move for a motion (such as your bylaw amendment, or even the motions to amend the amendment) to be voted on by ballot. While it requires a majority vote to approve this, that may be more palatable to some members.

Would never happen - the membership would never vote for that - it would lengthen the meeting, and all they care about is getting out of there.

[lptwigg]

Ah, so there is some hope after all.

Good luck!

Sigh. It went horribly sideways. Despite all my prep, I just do not have a devious enough mind to prepare for the kind of twisting maneuvering they do.

I now sort of have a plan for the November meeting, and after that, I give up.

Oh, and I was so glad I had my copy of RONR with me, because the entire night was one violation after another (the president and her followers are unbelievable - she let her good friend speak twice before others were able to speak once on a motion - but that is just the tip of the iceberg), but the one that I was able to fix was when a dude sitting near me started talking about a "friendly amendment." I opened the book, turned to the page on that, and handed it to him to read. He then corrected himself, and actually thanked me after the meeting for not embarrassing him but rather letting him read it and take care of it. So, maybe I made one ally.

Anyway, I do very much appreciate all the help I got here, even if I was not clever enough to actually use it.