Making a Point of Order Motion

[Guest RJ]

Regarding the making of a point of order motion, I understand that per RONR, 11th ed. p.253 that the motion can be made by saying "I rise to a point of order" or "point of order". Considering the following proceedings:

Chair calls for a vote on a seconded motion prior to discussion.

Member says "we haven't had discussion yet".

Chair says a seconded motion carried.

Member says "motion hasn't been voted on yet".

I'm not making this up. This actually just happened in a recent meeting.

WIthout having actually said "point of order" is the Member's statements considered a point of order motion? If considered a motion then I would think that it should be included in the minutes as follows:

Member made a point of order that there had been no discussion on the motion.

Member made a point of order that the motion hadn't been voted on yet.

[Chris Harrison]

I think that if it was obvious that a member was claiming that a rule was being broken that it should be considered a Point of Order even if the proper language was not used. Also, the minutes should include the Chair's ruling and his reason for the ruling.

[Guest RJ]

If the Chair doesn't rule on the point of order motion either because the Chair doesn't know the right process to follow or because the Chair chooses to ignore the motion (even though the Chair then proceeds to act as if the point is well taken), I would write the minutes as follows: "None of the point of order motions made were ruled as well taken or not."

[Trina]

...

Chair calls for a vote on a seconded motion prior to discussion.

Member says "we haven't had discussion yet".

Chair says a seconded motion carried.

Member says "motion hasn't been voted on yet".

...

If the Chair doesn't rule on the point of order motion either because the Chair doesn't know the right process to follow or because the Chair chooses to ignore the motion (even though the Chair then proceeds to act as if the point is well taken), I would write the minutes as follows: "None of the point of order motions made were ruled as well taken or not."

I don't know... this sounds like a pretty informal operation. When something like your two examples occurs in the organization for which I'm secretary -- the chair goofs, someone points it out, and the chair responds by promptly getting back on course (no argument, no controversy) -- I don't bother putting that in the minutes. Maybe I'm wrong about that choice -- it's sometimes hard to determine how informal procedure best matches against what is described in RONR -- but including it would seem to clutter up the minutes with a lot of minor deviations during the conduct of business.

[Guest RJ]

Yes, I tend to agree that minor points of order could possibly be omitted when there's no argument and no controversy. Consider though the following proceedings in a Homeowners Association Board meeting:

Chair says "Homeowners are not allowed to speak at Special Board meetings."

Member says "I make a point of order motion that Homeowners be allowed to speak as required by the State's Civil Code."

Then controversy ensues but Chair allows homeowners to speak without acknowleding that a point of order motion was made or ruling on the point of order motion.

I'm not making this up. This actually happened in a recent meeting (the same meeting with the other points of order).

For the sake of bringing to light what's supposed to happen in a meeting when a point of order motion is made, I would include all points of order in the minutes.

[George Mervosh]

In your last example (the first one you lost me on), it seems clear that after the point of order was raised the chair did view the point as well taken since he recognized the homeowners to speak.

So just note in the minutes the point of order and the fact the chair subsequently allowed homeowners to speak, and be done with it.

[Guest RJ]

Thank you all for your responses. Don't want to beat this to death. Just want to document what actually happened in a meeting and create awareness with other meeting participants regarding points of order.

[vadare12]

Remember to keep in mind FAQ#15

[Shmuel Gerber]

Chair says "Homeowners are not allowed to speak at Special Board meetings."

Member says "I make a point of order motion that Homeowners be allowed to speak as required by the State's Civil Code."

Then controversy ensues but Chair allows homeowners to speak without acknowleding that a point of order motion was made or ruling on the point of order motion.

In your last example (the first one you lost me on), it seems clear that after the point of order was raised the chair did view the point as well taken since he recognized the homeowners to speak.

I'm not sure that there was actually any point of order being raised here. The chair made a declaration, and a member contended that the declaration was incorrect, and the chair relented. But was there actually any instance of a rule being violated? In other words, was the chair's declaration in response to a homeowner's attempt to speak, or was he just blowing smoke?

[Guest RJ]

Yes, per FAQ#15 minutes document what was done in a meeting not what was said. Consider again:

Chair makes a motion which is seconded and then says "all in favor?"

Board Member says: "We didn't have any discussion"

Did Board Member make a point of order motion? I think Yes but it's debatable and maybe the minutes don't need to be cluttered up that a point of order motion was made. If Board Member doesn't say anything, a vote may have happened without discussion and Board Member would have been YSYL (You Snooze You Lose)'d. Seems to me that is significant enough to be included in the minutes.

Board Member says " I would like to hear Homeowners speak first before voting"

Chair says "Homeowners aren't allowed to speak at Special Board Meetings".

Board Member says "I make a point of order motion that Homeowners be allowed to speak as required by the State's Civil Code".

Homeowners then speak.

Did Board Member make a point of order motion? Yes, Board Member actually stated that a point of order motion was being made.

After discussion, Chair says "Motion carries."

Board Member says "we didn't vote yet".

Chair calls for vote.

Did Board Member make a point of order motion? I think yes but it's debatable and maybe the minutes don't need to be cluttered up that a point of order motion was made. If Board Member doesn't say anything, a vote may never have happened and nothing would have been accomplished at the meeting since this was the only matter being voted on at the meeting. The Board Members may have later thought that a vote was taken though and it may have been documented in the minutes that the motion carried, so the entire Board may have been YSYL's into thinking that the matter was voted on when it actually hadn't been.