Special Meeeting called by members

[Guest Club games]

Members of our organization, per our by laws, are presenting a motion by acquiring the necessary signatures to call a special meeting. Can the motion be altered in anyway at the special meeting? We would like to see the motion as presented voted on and have been told there may be an alternative motion presented.

[David A Foulkes]

Based on what you've provided so far, I'd say that the motion could be amended, thereby altering it in some fashion that may make it less desirable than its original format. But that's for the voters to decide. Whether an alternative motion can be presented is not clear to me, but I suspect it can as it most likely falls within the scope of the business noted in the call of the special meeting. A little more detail might help.

[jstackpo]

And in (proper - RONR, that is ) terms, the "Alternative Motion" could very well be presented as an Amendment by Substitution.

If it was germane, of course. And if it is germane, it would be OK per the notice requirements for a special meeting.

[Trina]

Yes, a motion made at a special meeting may be amended (within the scope of notice). That basically means that a member who has read the notice (the call to the meeting) would feel adequately notified of the business that ends up being conducted at the meeting. The example that's often given is raising membership dues. Suppose dues are currently $15. Notice is given of a motion to raise dues to $25. That $25 could be amended to any number between $15 and $25, and still be within the scope of notice. The example is trivially simple; in real life it is sometimes a bit (or a lot) more difficult to determine if a change is within the scope of notice.

As Mr. Foulkes suggested, more details might help.

[Dan Honemann]

Yes, a motion made at a special meeting may be amended (within the scope of notice). That basically means that a member who has read the notice (the call to the meeting) would feel adequately notified of the business that ends up being conducted at the meeting. The example that's often given is raising membership dues. Suppose dues are currently $15. Notice is given of a motion to raise dues to $25. That $25 could be amended to any number between $15 and $25, and still be within the scope of notice. The example is trivially simple; in real life it is sometimes a bit (or a lot) more difficult to determine if a change is within the scope of notice.

As Mr. Foulkes suggested, more details might help.

But take a look at Page 93, lines 13-21.

[Tim Wynn]

Members of our organization, per our by laws, are presenting a motion by acquiring the necessary signatures to call a special meeting. Can the motion be altered in anyway at the special meeting? We would like to see the motion as presented voted on and have been told there may be an alternative motion presented.

The motion can be amended, even by a motion to substitute.

[jstackpo]

And, as Dan indirectly noted, "scope of notice" has nothing to do with it.

A majority vote at the meeting is the basis for the ultimate decision. If you, Club Games the OP, don't like what you might have heard what the "alternative motion" (or amendmen) might be, be sure your like minded friends show up to vote against the amendment and for the original.

[Guest Clubgames]

I am being told by the parlimentarian that, "if there are more than one alternatives to submit to the membership by absentee ballot, each voting member will be instructed to vote yes or no on each alternative; if no alternative receives a majority of the votes cast, all alternatives fail; if one and only one alternative receives a majority of the votes cast, that alternative will pass; if more than one alternative receive a majority of the votes cast, the alternative receiving the highest number of yes votes will be deemed the alternative that passes."

My concern is the membership acquired the appropriate number of signatures on a petition and submitted it to the secretary per the by laws. A special meeting is now called. How do we make sure our original motion as stated on the petition does not become altered? In the above quote what do we do in the case of a tie, the motions may not be mutually exclusive?

[Trina]

But take a look at Page 93, lines 13-21.

Thank you; I guess my example is not quite on target with regard to business at a special meeting.

However, the original poster mentioned that this special meeting was being called in order to present a specific motion, with the hopes that the exact motion, as presented, would be voted on at the meeting. If a call to a special meeting actually includes the exact text of a motion to be presented (and I realize that RONR neither requires nor suggests that the exact language be included in the notice), would the scope of notice, as normally described for a motion, apply? Or would any germane amendment (as described in the p. 93 citation) be in order?

[George Mervosh]

Thank you; I guess my example is not quite on target with regard to business at a special meeting.

However, the original poster mentioned that this special meeting was being called in order to present a specific motion, with the hopes that the exact motion, as presented, would be voted on at the meeting. If a call to a special meeting actually includes the exact text of a motion to be presented (and I realize that RONR neither requires nor suggests that the exact language be included in the notice), would the scope of notice, as normally described for a motion, apply? Or would any germane amendment (as described in the p. 93 citation) be in order?

Unless the motion in question requires previous notice, it will be subject to any germane amendment. If previous notice is given (but not required), any amendments outside of the scope of notice will simply increase the voting threshold required to adopt the motion, but any germane amendment will still be in order.

[jstackpo]

Unless the motion in question requires previous notice, it will be subject to any germane amendment. If previous notice is given (but not required), any amendments outside of the scope of notice will simply increase the voting threshold required to adopt the motion, but any germane amendment will still be in order.

I don't think so -- giving an unrequired previous notice for a new main motion has no effect on vote thresholds in a special meeting; the usual response is "Oh, yeah; show me!"

You might be thinking of the ASPA motion - there the PN lowers the vote threshold for adoption, and if there are any adopted amendments that take the amended motion outside the scope of notice, the threshold jumps back up to 2/3.

[George Mervosh]

You might be thinking of the ASPA motion -

Yes, that's exactly the type of motion I was thinking of, since it's typically the kind previous notice is given for..... my fault for not being more complete in my answer

[Tim Wynn]

Unless the motion in question requires previous notice, it will be subject to any germane amendment. If previous notice is given (but not required), any amendments outside of the scope of notice will simply increase the voting threshold required to adopt the motion, but any germane amendment will still be in order.

I don't think so -- giving an unrequired previous notice for a new main motion has no effect on vote thresholds in a special meeting; the usual response is "Oh, yeah; show me!"

You might be thinking of the ASPA motion - there the PN lowers the vote threshold for adoption, and if there are any adopted amendments that take the amended motion outside the scope of notice, the threshold jumps back up to 2/3.

Yes, that's exactly the type of motion I was thinking of, since it's typically the kind previous notice is given for..... my fault for not being more complete in my answer

I don't know how it relates to George's train of thought, but here's a slight variation on the principle:

"If the bylaws require previous notice for their amendment (as they should), or if they do not but notice has been given and a majority of the entire membership is not present, no amendment to the bylaw amendment is in order that increases the modification of the article or provision to be amended . . ." - RONR (11th ed.), p. 595, ll. 3-7

[Bruce Lages]

Guest Clubgames - you've got me confused with the statements in your first post vs your second post. Your first post talks about petitioning for a special meeting to present your motion to the membership, and you say further that you would like to see the motion as presented voted on ( i presume you mean at this special meeting). But in your second post, you refer to your parliamentarian's description of what should happen for voting by absentee ballot. Can you please come back and clarify how you expect this motion to be handled - are you trying to have a vote occur at the special meeting, or will the motion, and any alternative mtions, be sent out for a vote by absentee ballot?

It's going to make a rather substantial difference in the answers to your questions.

And, if absentee ballots are involved, the usual first question here is - do your bylaws authorize voting by absentee ballot?

[Guest Nthv79]

Thank you for your input.

The motion being presented, in accordance with our bylaws, was sent to the members within 60 days of receipt by the secretary and the members were given 7 days notice prior to the special meeting.

The notice to the members stated the special meeting will take place on a date and time

and the vote will take place by absentee ballot. (allowed at the boards discretion)

How do we make sure our original motion as stated on the petition does not become altered?

In the above quote what do we do in the case of a tie, the motions may not be mutually exclusive?

Our bylaws call for a simple majority and if an alternative motion is made it is being suggested the motion receiving the most votes wins as long as both receive a majority. This doesn’t seem right to me.

[Bruce Lages]

OK - thanks for the additional input. As a follow-up question, if the motion has already been sent out to the membership and voting is to be by absentee ballot, what is the purpose of this special meeting? Is it at this meeting that the absentee ballots will be counted and the results of the vote announced? This doesn't seem likely since you are concerned about alternate motions being raised. So what do you expect to happen at this special meeting?

As for alternate motions, be aware that there can only be one main motion pending at a time, so that making alternate motions while your motion is pending would not be in order. That is why the previous responders have talked about the amendment process, whereby you perfect (your) motion by modifying it, in part or in whole, until the membership is satisfied that it is ready for a vote, and then you vote to adopt it, as modified, or not. If you follow this procedure, you will not have the 'choose among several alternates' voting that your parliamentarian is (in my mind, somewhat erroneously) describing.

[Bruce Lages]

And just as a further note of clarification -

How do we make sure our original motion as stated on the petition does not become altered?

If your motion (as stated on the petition) is going to be introduced at this special meeting, there is very little you can do to prevent it from being altered (amended is the appropriate RONR term) except argue against any amendments you don't agree with. Once presented to the membership, a motion is really out of the hands of its proposer(s) and in the hands of the assembly itself to deal with as it sees fit.

[jstackpo]

And if it is amended at the special meeting, even in only minor ways, all those absentee ballots/votes are (probably, unless you have special rules not found in RONR) so much trash paper (or electrons), since the absent voters haven't see the amended motion and there is no telling what they would think of it.

About all you can do, in complete fairness to the absent voters, is send the amended motion out for another round of absentee voting. And hope the problem in amendments in the next meeting doesn't come around again.

And after that amend your bylaws so that decisions are made either entirely by absentee ballots (no amendments possible) or only by those members in the meeting. Mixing them leads, as you can see, to all sorts of problems.