Guest Rick Posted November 1, 2012 at 12:49 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 at 12:49 AM I've read on other posts in this forum regarding up / down votes being not valid because it denies the right to debate and amend. I have the new book however i can not find where this is located.. Any help would be appreciated. thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Hunt Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:45 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:45 AM I've read on other posts in this forum regarding up / down votes being not valid because it denies the right to debate and amend. I have the new book however i can not find where this is located.. Any help would be appreciated. thanksWhat was meant in that post was that members have the right to debate a motion and to move amendments to that motion (RONR 11th ed. p. 3 ll. 1-11). Decisions cannot be taken in such a fashion as to deprive members of these opportunities, such as by the President saying "Ok next up we're deciding whether or not to double my salary. All those in favour? All those against? Motion carries." without letting anyone else getting a word in edgewise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Edgar Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:48 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:48 AM You might look at the motion to move the Previous Question. That's the proper way to end debate and go directly to a vote and I believe it can be made by the person who made the "previous" (pending) question, immediately after being recognized as first to debate that pending motion. Which would, if adopted, have the effect of causing an "up or down" vote (i.e. no debate, no amendment).See also FAQ #11.Anyone claiming there's some way to "force" an up or down vote would have to cite the rule that supports his claim.But stay tuned as I'm a bit over my pay-grade here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnR Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:55 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:55 AM I've read on other posts in this forum regarding up / down votes being not valid because it denies the right to debate and amend. I have the new book however i can not find where this is located.. Any help would be appreciated. thanks"[A main motion] Is debatable. Is amendable."RONR (11th ed.), p.103, ll.15-16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Rick Posted November 1, 2012 at 02:39 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 at 02:39 AM In depth explanation here...our by-laws state we can only amend them at the November meeting. A committee was set up to draft changes. Before the committee was finished the board dismissed them. The board then made major changes to the document in a closed door session. At the August meeting the board presented the draft changes to the membership. Discussion was allowed but except for one Article no debate or changes were allowed. A motion was made to put the one Article on the November ballot. A motion was made to accept the other Articles and that motion passed. When reading back the motion after the vote the Secretary inserted the phrase "put on the ballot, I put that in there"! Now the ballot contains all proposed changes to the by-laws with a simple up or down vote. Nether the vote or changes are on the agenda. No discussion is allowed, no debate, no amendments. In fact it is not mentioned anywhere! It is just to happen! Our by-laws do not give the board any authority to take this action. I've been searching for the means to prevent this action. Appreciate all your help! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Hunt Posted November 1, 2012 at 04:20 AM Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 at 04:20 AM In depth explanation here...our by-laws state we can only amend them at the November meeting. A committee was set up to draft changes. Before the committee was finished the board dismissed them. The board then made major changes to the document in a closed door session. At the August meeting the board presented the draft changes to the membership. Discussion was allowed but except for one Article no debate or changes were allowed. A motion was made to put the one Article on the November ballot. A motion was made to accept the other Articles and that motion passed. When reading back the motion after the vote the Secretary inserted the phrase "put on the ballot, I put that in there"! Now the ballot contains all proposed changes to the by-laws with a simple up or down vote. Nether the vote or changes are on the agenda. No discussion is allowed, no debate, no amendments. In fact it is not mentioned anywhere! It is just to happen! Our by-laws do not give the board any authority to take this action. I've been searching for the means to prevent this action. Appreciate all your help!At the meeting, ask to debate on them. If you are not allowed to debate them, then you should raise a Point of Order that you must be accorded the right to debate. If the presiding officer rules against you, make an Appeal---have a friend on hand to second the Appeal.Hopefully, at this point, your presiding officer will recognize the Appeal and allow it to be resolved. If you don't expect that is the case, then you need to go one step further; make sure that as many of the sympathetic members are aware of this that you can think of. If the chair ignores or refuses to hear the Appeal, make it twice more. If he doesn't agree the third time, you (or anyone else) can simply stand and put it the question "Shall the decision of the chair be sustained?" without any debate or amendment, and there is to be an immediate vote.If you expect this to be a problem still, it may be more useful to start with a motion to Suspend the Rules and appoint an alternate presiding officer; someone familiar with presiding and the rules, and who is likely to gain sufficient support for it to work. If the chair refuses to hear the motion, follow the procedure above to overrule the chair, then immediately after the chair is overruled, state the question to Suspend the Rules and if two thirds are in favour, then the new presiding officer takes control of the meeting.If you plan on going this route, I strongly recommend ensuring that the individual you appoint to preside is impartial and skilled, such as a professional parliamentarian. Familiarize yourself with Chapter XX of RONR, in case you find yourselves needing to go further in the matter of discipline.The board do not run a meeting of the members. The members do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George Mervosh Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:19 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:19 PM The proper way to vote on a motion without the opportunity for debate and amendment is shown in RONR (11th ed.), p. 266, l. 30ff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Harrison Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:44 PM Report Share Posted November 1, 2012 at 01:44 PM The proper way to vote on a motion without the opportunity for debate and amendment is shown in RONR (11th ed.), p. 266, l. 30ff....Which would require a 2/3 vote to adopt and (if I remember correctly) if a 2/3 vote isn't able to be achieved the motion itself can be made again (without the Suspend the Rules aspect) and considered in the normal way (with debate, amendment, other applicable motions can be applied to it, etc being allowed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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