Minutes take hours to alter reality

[yood]

Hi,

 

I'm the Secretary of a 10 member board of a 500 member club.

 

In the past, the Secretary would give a copy of the minutes to the President for distribution and but the President would edit them at will before mailing. A couple of months ago, I started sending the President unalterable PDF's and after much threatening/posturing, has 'allowed' it. I also have become quite attached to Roberts Rules style minutes and have left all the 'he said / she said' stuff out.

 

We begin each monthly board meeting with a review of the minutes of the previous month. The review can take more than 25% of the meeting as everyone wants the wording to be just so. The past couple of months we never did resolve it and just postponed the minute's corrections decision for the next month. Now, with the new 'RR style' minutes, even more arguments are at hand.

 

So, the August board meeting was last Sunday. The President allowed me to explain the 'new' way of doing things and immediately the discussion about how things 'should' be done erupted.

 

We attempted to conduct June's correction to the minutes which contained the previously voted and approved corrections from April's minutes (there was no May meeting). Someone said that they never voted on those corrections and others agreed, as it was controversial, yet it was passed in April. They wanted that stricken. I 'point of order' that to change something voted on would require proper notice and a vote, etc. etc. But many insist it never happened. So, we approve the June minutes as corrected except for the part about April's minutes.

 

Next we try to conduct July's correction to the minutes. Each board member expresses opinions on wordings, corrections, additions, etc. They do not use the phrase(s) 'I move' or 'I motion' but the point is clear; They all want changes. One addition requested is that apparently last month it was motioned, voted on and approved that the Secretary would send the minutes to the President for final edit before each meeting. Of course that never happened and I 'point of order' that it never happened and also that it would be a change to the by-laws (requiring proper notice, etc.) to fundamentally redefine the Secretary's role. Others agree that it really did happen. The July minutes never get voted on and the meeting proceeds.

 

First order of business, the President motions that no audio or video recordings are allowed in the meetings. I 'point of order' that might have to be in the By-laws instead of a standing rule, as Robert Rules permits it. I also mention why it might be a good idea, but the motion is approved straight away.

 

So, how bad is this? (rhetorical question). They deny things that did happen, insist on things that did not happen and prohibit recording.

 

1. What do I motion when reality is being altered and others agree?

2. Does recording at a meeting by the Secretary need a By-laws change to prohibit or is Standing Rules sufficient?

3. Does shouting out changes to the minutes constitute a motion for correction when they are all doing it? I have to try to write this stuff in the minutes for the next month....along with my points of order(s)...

 

Under new business, I did manage to motion for an audit as funds are being spent contrary to the rules and we have more members but less gross receipts over the past 2 years. Of course that was defeated 6-1, but at least its on the record (at least for now....).

 

So, in September, we'll still be fighting over April's meeting via June's minutes... The August minutes are sure to be pure plutonium. If they find my body in the parking lot, at least you'll know what happened.

 

Please shoot me,

mark

 

 

[Timothy]

I suspect your problem is that you're putting too much in your minutes. There is a place for getting the wording so so, but that is when the motion is made and discussed. The minutes should contain the motion exactly as it was made (and as amended if necessary). If that is all that is in the minutes and they still don't like the wording, they can make a motion to amend something previously adopted. The only changes to the minutes should be if the secretary makes a mistake in how the motion was worded. And that shouldn't happen often if the president is doing his job properly.

[jstackpo]

And if someone does insist that "his deathless words" be included in the minutes, two things.....

1) INSIST that his text be in writing exactly as he wants it --- you have that right, p. 40 --

and

2) insist that the inclusion of the text be put in the form of a motion to include it.

These two steps should eliminate all the arguments over who said what, &c., and may help in reducing the amount of stuff in the minutes.

[g40]

I wish you well!

 

Some suggestions:

1. Try (as best it can be done) to avoid getting deep into the weeds of arguing over items in (or not in) the draft minutes.

2. When the draft minutes are up for review/approval, what is "in order" is offering a correction (or corrections). In my experience with several meetings where things got "out of hand", it was typical for a disgruntled member to say something like, "I KNOW that is not what my motion said, but I can't remember my wording" - then the arguing starts.

3. Once only offered corrections (perhaps in writing as previously suggested) are allowed, things may calm down. [At least that is what has happened at one organization]

[Edgar Guest]

If they find my body in the parking lot, at least you'll know what happened.

 

Please shoot me . . . 

 

Since the board doesn't like the minutes you're submitting, if I were you I'd resign.

[Josh Martin]

1. What do I motion when reality is being altered and others agree?

 

There is no appropriate motion. I'm afraid there's nothing to do except to state your case in debate. Corrections are debatable.

 

2. Does recording at a meeting by the Secretary need a By-laws change to prohibit or is Standing Rules sufficient?

 

A standing rule is sufficient. Nothing in RONR gives the Secretary or anyone else permission to record a meeting. RONR simply notes that a recording can be helpful in preparing the minutes. (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 471). A rule pertaining to the use of recording devices is explicitly mentioned as an example of a standing rule. (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 265)

 

3. Does shouting out changes to the minutes constitute a motion for correction when they are all doing it? I have to try to write this stuff in the minutes for the next month....along with my points of order(s)...

 

A correction is not necessarily formally offered as a motion, but members must seek recognition in order to offer a correction. So no, just shouting corrections at the Secretary is not proper.

 

As others have noted, we may need to get the root of the problem. If there are numerous arguments over the content of the minutes, this almost certainly indicates that something is very wrong. You say that you are recording what was done, not what was said, as RONR recommends, which rules out the most common culprit. Another common culprit is the chair failing to pin down the exact wording of motions in the first place. I wonder if that may be the problem here. RONR has this advice on that subject:

 

"If a motion is offered in a wording that is not clear or that requires smoothing before it can be recorded in the minutes, it is the duty of the chair to see that the motion is put into suitable form—preserving the content to the satisfaction of the mover—before the question is stated. The chair should not admit a motion that the secretary would have to paraphrase for the record. The chair—either on his own initiative or at the secretary's request—can require any main motion, amendment (10, 12), or instructions to a committee to be in writing before he states the question." (RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 39-40)