Guest erin Posted March 26, 2015 at 04:45 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 04:45 PM The only thing our bylaws state on voting for officers is "if there is more than one candidate for any office, the vote shall be by ballot and signed absentee and proxy ballots shall be counted". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:01 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:01 PM The only thing our bylaws state on voting for officers is "if there is more than one candidate for any office, the vote shall be by ballot and signed absentee and proxy ballots shall be counted". OK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest erin Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:16 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:16 PM sorry, next sentence got dropped. Does the signed absentee ballot requirement dictate that the vote will not be secret? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:22 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:22 PM Does the signed absentee ballot requirement dictate that the vote will not be secret?It is up to your organization to interpret its own bylaws, but I personally interpret that provision as meaning that only absentee ballots and proxies need to be signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:24 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:24 PM Well yes, the absentee and proxy ballots anyway, as I read the bylaw snippet you included. See RONR, p. 424 for a better way of authenticating the identity of the absentee voters (are they members?) while still retaining a (more or less) secret ballot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest erin Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:38 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:38 PM The bylaws are silent on whether a secret ballot is required. Can we assume the entire ballot does not have to be secret because it makes no sense to have both secret and non secret ballots? What we're trying to do is come up with voting procedures using only the single sentence in the by-laws and Robert's rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jstackpo Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:46 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 05:46 PM Of course it makes no sense. But your question related to what your bylaws apparently say, which is under the same sense-tent. Looks like the way out is to amend the bylaws. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 26, 2015 at 06:21 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 06:21 PM The bylaws are silent on whether a secret ballot is required. Can we assume the entire ballot does not have to be secret because it makes no sense to have both secret and non secret ballots? No, you should assume that the entire ballot has to be secret. A ballot vote is, by definition, secret. There is such an animal as a "signed ballot" but that's essentially a roll-call vote and that's almost certainly not what your bylaws call for. Mr. Stackpole has directed you to the place in RONR that describes how the authenticity of an absentee ballot can be verified while still preserving the secrecy of the vote (hint: in involves signing an envelope but not the ballot itself). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted March 26, 2015 at 06:29 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 06:29 PM The bylaws are silent on whether a secret ballot is required. Can we assume the entire ballot does not have to be secret because it makes no sense to have both secret and non secret ballots?It is up to your organization to interpret its own bylaws. See RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 588-591 for some Principles of Interpretation.What we're trying to do is come up with voting procedures using only the single sentence in the by-laws and Robert's rules.Good luck with that. No, you should assume that the entire ballot has to be secret. A ballot vote is, by definition, secret. There is such an animal as a "signed ballot" but that's essentially a roll-call vote and that almost certainly not what your bylaws call for. Mr. Stackpole has directed you to the place in RONR that describes how the authenticity of an absentee ballot can be verified while still preserving the secrecy of the vote (hint: in involves signing an envelope but not the ballot itself).Are you sure about all this? The bylaws specifically state that "signed absentee and proxy ballots" shall be counted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted March 26, 2015 at 07:43 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 07:43 PM A ballot vote is, by definition, secret. There is such an animal as a "signed ballot". . . .RONR makes several references to the use of "signed ballots". It is not that unusual for absentee voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 26, 2015 at 08:06 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 08:06 PM RONR makes several references to the use of "signed ballots". It is not that unusual for absentee voting. The term "signed ballot", as used in RONR, has nothing to do with absentee voting. It's a form of roll-call vote. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 26, 2015 at 08:10 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 08:10 PM Are you sure about all this? The bylaws specifically state that "signed absentee and proxy ballots" shall be counted. Sure? No. But I'd rather think that the bylaws say "signed ballots" as a poorly-worded way of insuring that the ballots are authentic than think that they were referring to what is, essentially, a roll-call vote. And I certainly wouldn't think that the mention of "signed ballots" can be used to argue that the entire vote shouldn't be secret when the bylaws say that "the vote should be by ballot". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted March 26, 2015 at 09:32 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 09:32 PM The term "signed ballot", as used in RONR, has nothing to do with absentee voting. It's a form of roll-call vote.It can also be used with mail voting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted March 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 10:18 PM Sure? No. But I'd rather think that the bylaws say "signed ballots" as a poorly-worded way of insuring that the ballots are authentic than think that they were referring to what is, essentially, a roll-call vote.This all seems perfectly reasonable, but if the bylaws require "signed ballots," it would seem to me that the ballots themselves must be signed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 26, 2015 at 11:15 PM Report Share Posted March 26, 2015 at 11:15 PM This all seems perfectly reasonable, but if the bylaws require "signed ballots," it would seem to me that the ballots themselves must be signed.All the ballots? Or just the absentee ballots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Martin Posted March 27, 2015 at 12:49 AM Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 at 12:49 AM All the ballots? Or just the absentee ballots. It would certainly seem that the absentee and proxy ballots, at a minimum, must be signed. Whether the other ballots must also be signed is unclear. The fact that the organization seems to be combining in-person votes with absentee votes is likely to create many more problems than just this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 27, 2015 at 07:25 PM Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 at 07:25 PM It would certainly seem that the absentee and proxy ballots, at a minimum, must be signed. Why do you think proxy ballots should must be signed? The proxy holder will be present at the meeting. Why should he sign his ballot when other present voters don't have to sign theirs? And whose name should he sign? His or the member for whom he's acting as proxy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted March 27, 2015 at 07:45 PM Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 at 07:45 PM Why do you think proxy ballots should must be signed? The proxy holder will be present at the meeting. Why should he sign his ballot when other present voters don't have to sign theirs? And whose name should he sign? His or the member for whom he's acting as proxy.ItBecause Guest Erin's original post quotes the bylaws as saying: "the vote shall be by ballot and signed absentee and proxy ballots shall be counted"." It is clear that absentee ballots must be signed. As to whether proxy ballots must be signed, that perhaps depends on how the society interprets that particular phrase. It can certainly be interpreted to mean that proxy ballots must also be signed. We aren't discussing the wisdom of it or what we would like the bylaws to say. We have to go by what they actually say. If the drafters intended for only absentee ballots to be signed, they could have easily worded that phrase differently to make that plain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Guest Posted March 27, 2015 at 07:54 PM Report Share Posted March 27, 2015 at 07:54 PM It can certainly be interpreted to mean that proxy ballots must also be signed. Yes. I attempted to edit my post to acknowledge that but my ancient computer had other ideas. I think we can all agree that these bylaws need some work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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