posting of election results

[jbhhawaii]

After our last election no one posted the election results.  Later they were posted without the loser's scores just the winner's scores. Some of the losers were not even told of the outcome and heard they lost when others offered them condolences

[Gary Novosielski]

I see.

[Richard Brown]

The tellers' report should be read in full to the membership at the meeting at which the votes are tabulated (or announced) and should also be entered in full in the minutes.   RONR pages 417-418

[jbhhawaii]

The results were not read out as the voting took place at the end of the meeting.  When finally posted a  month later only the winner's scores were shown. I there any penalty levied for this breach of procedure? How do we know the count was fair or a quorum was even present?

[Gary Novosielski]

Did anyone raise a point of order at the time?  

You can vote to censure the chair for failure to properly enforce the rules, but at this late date, that's about all you can do.  And it's not much of a penalty.

[jbhhawaii]

Quote

Thanks Gary.  We have a few "issues" out here, to say the least!

 

[Richard Brown]

Provided the ballots are still intact, your assembly might be able to order a recount.  You can also adopt a motion directing the secretary, president, tellers or whomever has custody of the ballots or the tellers' report to disclose the full counts and/or to include same in the minutes.  However, if the ballots have been destroyed, and if the tellers report is not available, there is probably not much you can do except adopt a special rule of order for the future requiring that the full tellers' report, with all vote counts, be posted.  You can also do as Gary Novosielski suggested above and censure or otherwise discipline those persons responsible for not properly reporting the results. 

It might be a good idea for you to get a copy of the current edition (the 11th edition) of RONR and study the sections on voting, nominations and elections... and make sure your president and the tellers know those provisions.   It retails for about $18 or $19, but is available on Amazon for about $12.   http://robertsrules.com/book.html

 

[jstackpo]

And if you get any arguments against posting, or at least reading the results, here are some talking points...

Indeed it is the proper thing to do, to read out the numerical vote results for the members to hear -- see p. 417, line 18 ff. - and to include them in the minutes

Consider some possibilities:

1)  The winner got nearly all the votes and the loser has had a long history of fruitlessly running for office.  Reading the vote count might send him a message, that it is time to quit making a fool of himself.

2)  The vote is "reasonably" close.  This way the loser will be encouraged to try again, as it seems, by the vote, that he has a good deal of potential, and many friends, but just went up against a better person this time.  This may help to keep a good candidate in the game.

3)  The vote is "extremely" close - one or two votes different.  The assembly may very well want to order a recount (RONR p. 419, line 1, see index also) just to be sure of the result.  This way there are no (or fewer) hard feelings.

4)   The president, when declaring who won, makes a simple mistake and names the wrong person, or he does not understand the vote required to adopt the motion (majority, 2/3, &c.) and states the "wrong" outcome.

5)   The tellers make an error.  Reading the results out loud may not help to catch this but studying the printed documentation  in the minutes at leisure probably would.  The documentation would also serve as evidence if there were serious questions about the outcome.
 
Without the teller having read the numbers, how will anybody (except the teller, if he is paying attention) know to correct this?

6)   The winner of the election (or partisans of the winning side of a critical issue) could weigh the numerical results in terms of whether they have a "mandate" to proceed at full bore, or whether there might be some fence mending to look after first.

If the vote results were not made immediately available to the membership, none of the above good things could happen.

And this listing doesn't even mention the myriad possibilities for knavery or outright fraud that are available when vote counts are kept secret.

[George Mervosh]

I'm confused.  Did the chair at least announce who won, at a meeting?

[jstackpo]

17 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

I'm confused.  Did the chair at least announce who won, at a meeting?

Sounds like they all voted and then just went home. Then a  month later "results were posted".

[George Mervosh]

7 minutes ago, jstackpo said:

Sounds like they all voted and then just went home. Then a  month later "results were posted".

Unless the assembly, at the meeting, instructed the results to be posted later, nothing is finalized until they finish up at a meeting, right?  These posted results are meaningless, no?

[jstackpo]

Well, maybe.  Perhaps the assembly authorized the posting as the official record of the outcome of the election.  Or it is their longstanding custom.

We will have to wait for jbhhawaii to tell us.

[jbhhawaii]

Hi All.  You are being most helpful.  The agenda addressed the normal  matters of business at the regular monthly meeting. The last order of business was voting.(This was a re-vote for 2 positions due to irregularities at the December annual elections..something I brought to this site back then.)  It was announced the meeting would  be formally adjourned after the ballots were counted and the results would be posted the next day on the garden bulletin board. Only winners were posted with their votes. Losers tallies were not posted, No mention of how many members were in attendance nor any mention of majorities or quorums and their numbers. 

 

[jstackpo]

As noted previously, that posting of "results" is woefully inadequate.  Next meeting insist of getting all the details.

[Gary Novosielski]

13 hours ago, jbhhawaii said:

Hi All.  You are being most helpful.  The agenda addressed the normal  matters of business at the regular monthly meeting. The last order of business was voting.(This was a re-vote for 2 positions due to irregularities at the December annual elections..something I brought to this site back then.)  It was announced the meeting would  be formally adjourned after the ballots were counted and the results would be posted the next day on the garden bulletin board. Only winners were posted with their votes. Losers tallies were not posted, No mention of how many members were in attendance nor any mention of majorities or quorums and their numbers. 

 

Okay, well, now you know this was completely improper.  The results should have been announced at the meeting and the full tellers report should have been read twice, once by the reporting teller, and once by the chair, who must also announce the results (who won, if anyone, or the need for additional balloting if not.)

The number of members in attendance is of no consequence, except to establish a quorum, but that's not part of the tellers' duties anyway.

Here's what RONR says about the tellers report: 

Quote

Tellers’ Report and the Chair’s Declaration of the Result. The chairman of tellers, standing, addresses the chair, reads the tellers’ report, and hands it to the chair without declaring the result. In the case of an election, the report should follow this form:

TELLERS’ REPORT 

Number of votes cast                                97 
Necessary for election (majority)                   49 
Mr. Miller received                                 51 
Mr. Wilson received                                 24 
Mr. Strong received                                 14 
Illegal Votes Mr. Friend (ineligible)                7 
Two ballots for Mr. Wilson folded together, rejected 1

...

The tellers’ report should not include the number of members eligible to vote nor the number abstaining. ... [O]nly the officer responsible for maintaining the membership roll ... can validly determine the number of members eligible to vote if this figure becomes needed. The reporting teller never declares the result of a ballot vote. The result is always declared by the chair, who also reads the tellers’ report before he does so. In an election, the chair separately declares the election of each officer (see also 46). ,,,

The tellers’ report is entered in full in the minutes, becoming a part of the official records of the organization. Under no circumstances should this be omitted in an election or in a vote on a critical motion out of a mistaken deference to the feelings of unsuccessful candidates....