Guest Betty Posted May 22, 2017 at 01:48 AM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 01:48 AM Our by-laws st ate the following: All Officers shall hold the same office for so long as they are nominated and elected by popular vote of the Tenants Association Membership by majority vote or until they resign their office. We held an election to elect new officers last week. Our reigning Vice President was re-elected, however she does not like the person that was elected President and made that very clear at the meeting. However, everything seemed to be alright by the end of the meeting. The new officers will be installed next month. I am the out going President by choice. The Vice President left a message on my answering machine stating that she is resigning. However three days later she told our Treasurer that she is not resigning. We are having meeting with Management later this week and my question is whether or not her resignation is binding or can she continue to serve as Vice President? I want to be prepared before the upcoming meeting. Thank you for your help in advance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hieu H. Huynh Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:14 AM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:14 AM See FAQ #18. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Betty Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:58 AM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:58 AM 43 minutes ago, Hieu H. Huynh said: FAQ #18. Thanks, this very helpful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Ed Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:00 AM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:00 AM Based on the information provided, the Vice President has withdrawn he resignation and as such will continue as Vice President. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:12 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:12 PM I agree with the responses above provided the organization does not have a bylaw provision that says a resignation is effective when received. Guest Betty, do your bylaws say anything about how an officer goes about resigning and when the resignation becomes effective? If not, the provisions in RONR are controlling. I agree that it sounds like the resignation has been withdrawn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:39 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:39 PM And who they need to resign to? Does it need to be to the President or Secretary or can it be any officer? And I disagree that the resignation was withdrawn (if RONR is controlling) since the Request to be Excused from a Duty was never made p 291 l 1-6. Under RONR a message on a machine is not valid. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:54 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 02:54 PM (edited) In my response above, I initially added that RONR seems to provide that a resignation should be in writing unless made verbally in a meeting. However, I did not have RONR at my fingertips and was not able to provide a citation so I deleted that statement before posting my comment. RONR does not actually say that a verbal resignation left on an answering machine is not valid, but that might well be the effect of the provisions in RONR. I think that the assembly might well consider the answering machine message to be a resignation if the officer says or does something else to reinforce it such as saying the same thing to another member and failing to perform any of the duties of the office. At some point, as a practical matter, the society would be justified in taking the position that the officer has tendered a resignation. Edited May 22, 2017 at 02:56 PM by Richard Brown edited the first paragraph Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:02 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:02 PM Now that I am at a computer and have both a hard copy and the CD ROM version of RONR available, here is what RONR says at the top of page 291 about resignations: "If a member who has accepted an office, committee assignment, or other duty finds that he is unable to perform it, he should submit his resignation. A resignation is submitted in writing, addressed to the secretary or appointing power; alternatively, it may be submitted during a meeting either orally or in writing.* By submitting a resignation, the member is, in effect, requesting to be excused from a duty. The chair, on reading or announcing the resignation, can assume a motion "that the resignation be accepted." The duties of a position must not be abandoned until a resignation has been accepted and becomes effective, or at least until there has been a reasonable opportunity for it to be accepted. " I tend to agree for the most part with SaintCad that the "answering machine" resignation was not a valid resignation to start with. However, i do still maintain that when considered along with other circumstances indicating that the vice president has tendered a resignation, such as repeating the statement to others and abandoning (or never undertaking) the duties of the office to which she was elected, the society can take the position that she has indeed submitted a resignation and the society may accept the resignation at a meeting of the appropriate body for accepting a resignation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan Honemann Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:13 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:13 PM In this instance, however, we've been told that three days after leaving the voice-mail "resignation" the officer in question told the Treasurer that she is not resigning, and so I suppose that that's that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:29 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:29 PM 22 minutes ago, Richard Brown said: However, i do still maintain that when considered along with other circumstances indicating that the vice president has tendered a resignation, such as repeating the statement to others and abandoning (or never undertaking) the duties of the office to which she was elected, the society can take the position that she has indeed submitted a resignation and the society may accept the resignation at a meeting of the appropriate body for accepting a resignation. I disagree. I think that it would be a Chapter XX issue for dereliction of duties. Suppose the officer tells another (non-officer) member "I'm quitting" after a meeting, disappears for 3 months then comes back after a change of heart (and after being replaced) and says that they are still an officer because they never tendered a resignation under RONR. What would you do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:33 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:33 PM Just now, SaintCad said: I disagree. I think that it would be a Chapter XX issue for dereliction of duties. Suppose the officer tells another (non-officer) member "I'm quitting" after a meeting, disappears for 3 months then comes back after a change of heart (and after being replaced) and says that they are still an officer because they never tendered a resignation under RONR. What would you do? I would say, "Too bad. You submitted a resignation and abandoned your duties, and we accepted your resignation. We have a new vice president now". I do agree that it COULD be treated as a Chapter XX dereliction of duties, but I don't see any need to get into the complex Chapter XX disciplinary procedures in a case like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:36 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:36 PM "Point of Order, I didn't submit my resignation. Read RONR page 291. There is no written resignation and I did not make an oral resignation at a meeting." I think it is critical to follow RONR because as we preach to guest all the time we cannot disregard procedure for convenience. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Brown Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:45 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:45 PM "Too bad. You're out. We have a new Vice President. If you don't like it, sue us." And I would be tempted to add: "And if you keep complaining about it, we will start disciplinary procedures to expel you". btw, I don't think the failure to insist on a written resignation constitutes a continuing breach. But, if the member wants to raise a point of order at a meeting that she did not resign and is still the vice president, I feel fairly confident that the chair will rule against her and that the chair's ruling will be sustained on an appeal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:53 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 05:53 PM On Appeal, what justification IN RONR do you have that the officer resigned? And on a side note, don't you see how not following RONR could be open to abuse if someone says something outside the meeting in anger or frustration. And if the Chair does not need to follow RONR in regards to Request for Being Excused then why should the chair be held to follow RONR for anything else? Why, in your opinion, is a resignation different enough that RONR doesn't have to be followed whereas the rest of the rules do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rev Ed Posted May 22, 2017 at 07:40 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 07:40 PM SaintCad - I know of several organizations where the By-laws have included a statement that if a Board member misses three meetings within a calendar year without a reason that the Board can declare the position vacant. So if the member leaves for three months after stating "I quit", the Board could declare the position vacant regardless. So even under your situation, the person could win on appeal only to still be removed from office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaintCad Posted May 22, 2017 at 08:12 PM Report Share Posted May 22, 2017 at 08:12 PM But Rev Ed, Richard and I are going back and forth if only RONR applies - of course bylaws can supercede that. I contend that under RONR the Chair cannot declare an officer has resigned unless that person has followed the rules. Otherwise it needs to be removal for cause. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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