President Duties

[Guest tina]

Can a president of an orginaztion call a private special meeting with just a few members that feel the same way he does and keep it from the rest of the membership?

[J. J.]

57 minutes ago, Guest tina said:

Can a president of an orginaztion call a private special meeting with just a few members that feel the same way he does and keep it from the rest of the membership?

The president can get together with whomever he wishes. 

The president can only call a special meeting, where business of the organization is conducted, if the bylaws permit it.  The president must give notice of this meeting to all members.

I cannot determine if this was meant to be a formal meeting or an informal get together. 

Edited January 16, 2018 at 04:33 PM by J. J.

[Guest tina]

13 minutes ago, J. J. said:

The president can get together with whomever he wishes. 

The president can only call a special meeting, where business of the organization is conducted, if the bylaws permit it.  The president must give notice of this meeting to all members.

I cannot determine if this was meant to be a formal meeting or an informal get together. 

The president contacted 10 people to discuss the problems of the organization and how to handle it.   And then turned around and took this to the governing board over the president without notifying any other members.

[Joshua Katz]

12 minutes ago, Guest tina said:

The president contacted 10 people to discuss the problems of the organization and how to handle it.   And then turned around and took this to the governing board over the president without notifying any other members.

I'm not quite sure what "over the president" means in this context.  However, it sounds like the president met with 10 people for advice, then proposed the ideas that were developed to the board without telling the board where they came from, and didn't tell the board about his plan to do so.  So far as RONR is concerned, none of that violates any rule.  Depending on the nature of the assembly and the jurisdiction, there may be relevant sunshine law provisions.

[Guest tina]

This would be the president of our local fire department who is the head of our business meetings.  Then we have the Township Trustees who are over the fire dept.  The fire dept president emailed some members to have them meet at a local restaurant to discuss the problems of the fire dept and to take action.  But this was not relayed to all members to participate.  The group that met in secret then took what they had discussed back to the Trustees to see if they could do anything.  A lot of the complaints were regarding the Chief, whom is hired by the Township.  Shouldn't this secret meeting been open to the whole membership for discussion not just a chosen few?  You mentioned the Sunshine law.  Are fire depts. under that?  I have been trying to find this and have been unable to.

[Joshua Katz]

12 minutes ago, Guest tina said:

This would be the president of our local fire department who is the head of our business meetings.  Then we have the Township Trustees who are over the fire dept.  The fire dept president emailed some members to have them meet at a local restaurant to discuss the problems of the fire dept and to take action.  But this was not relayed to all members to participate.  The group that met in secret then took what they had discussed back to the Trustees to see if they could do anything.  A lot of the complaints were regarding the Chief, whom is hired by the Township.  Shouldn't this secret meeting been open to the whole membership for discussion not just a chosen few?  You mentioned the Sunshine law.  Are fire depts. under that?  I have been trying to find this and have been unable to.

We can't answer legal questions, and in any event, the coverage of your sunshine law depends on your jurisdiction.  It is more likely that your Trustees are impacted by such a law than your fire department, but again, it would requiring knowing your specific law and interpreting it.  You'd need to consult an attorney on that.

Strictly in terms of RONR, none of these discussions are improper, and none of them require notice or being open to the public or the FD membership.  The reason is that, when they met at the restaurant, no action was taken (or, at least, so it seems).  It was just a discussion, and RONR has no requirements about what happens outside of meetings, because it is a set of rules for meetings.  That doesn't make it nice (although some might call it 'politicking'), it just means RONR has nothing to do with it.

[George Mervosh]

38 minutes ago, Guest tina said:

The fire dept president emailed some members to have them meet at a local restaurant to discuss the problems of the fire dept and to take action.  But this was not relayed to all members to participate.

I guess I'm the only one who thinks it sounds like a meeting but as Mr. Katz says you can check with an attorney about any legal questions.

[Joshua Katz]

5 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

I guess I'm the only one who thinks it sounds like a meeting but as Mr. Katz says you can check with an attorney about any legal questions.

Well, I see where you're coming from, but then there's:

47 minutes ago, Guest tina said:

The group that met in secret then took what they had discussed back to the Trustees to see if they could do anything. 

So, just as a clarification, if the group made a decision and acted on it, then it was a special meeting of the trustees, and would have to follow whatever rules allow for special meetings of the trustees (and, if there aren't any, then the trustees cannot have meetings).  But a point of order still could not be raised at the FD.  If all they did was talk, not act - and it's unclear how they could have acted - then even if they call it a meeting, I don't see what the point of order would be.  

[Guest Who's Coming to Dinner]

To be clear, in modern civil society, people are free to meet, talk, and take action on their own behalf. If they don't follow the rules for holding an official meeting of the organization, then they are personally on the hook for whatever they do unless and until the organization ratifies it.

[Gary Novosielski]

2 hours ago, Guest tina said:

The fire dept president emailed some members to have them meet at a local restaurant to discuss the problems of the fire dept and to take action.  But this was not relayed to all members to participate. <emphasis added>

If it was proposed to "take action" then this sounds like a called (special) meeting, not  an informal gathering.  Informal gatherings can discuss anything, but not take action.  Special meetings are only valid to the extent that the bylaws permit them.  And in the case of any official meeting, all members of the group that is meeting must be notified, or actions taken at the meeting are null and void.

[Joshua Katz]

3 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

If it was proposed to "take action" then this sounds like a called (special) meeting, not  an informal gathering.  Informal gatherings can discuss anything, but not take action.  Special meetings are only valid to the extent that the bylaws permit them.  And in the case of any official meeting, all members of the group that is meeting must be notified, or actions taken at the meeting are null and void.

Okay, but if the person proposing the "meeting" says we'll take action, but no action is taken, maybe the rules were violated, but there's nothing to declare null and void.  So far as I can tell, nothing was done, and a point of order that they met incorrectly would be pointless since there would be nothing to reverse.  All that was decided was, apparently, to meet with the trustees and see what they can do.  

Furthermore, just who needed to be informed of this so-called special meeting?  As I understand the facts, the president met with town trustees, but the complaint is that fire department members weren't invited.  Unless a rule or law requires otherwise, fire department members would not have to be invited to special meetings of the town trustees.

[Gary Novosielski]

If the meeting was improperly called, but then nothing was done, I don't believe that would rule out invoking discipline against the individual who acted improperly.

I believe I stated that those who must be notified are the members of the group that is meeting.  Non-members of that group need not be notified.  How that applies to this particular case is left as an exercise for the reader. 

[J. J.]

2 hours ago, Gary Novosielski said:

If it was proposed to "take action" then this sounds like a called (special) meeting, not  an informal gathering.  Informal gatherings can discuss anything, but not take action.  Special meetings are only valid to the extent that the bylaws permit them.  And in the case of any official meeting, all members of the group that is meeting must be notified, or actions taken at the meeting are null and void.

It depends what the "action" is.  If the action is to plan out a strategy for the next meeting, this is not a meeting, for example.