When is a passed motion in effect

[Sheila T]

The Board made a motion to amend an item our Policies and Procedures. The motion passed. The question is this: Is the amendment in effect immediately after the motion is passed or when the minutes in which the motion was made/passed approved (which is generally at the next monthly Board meeting)

Thanks

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

The former. It is in effect upon its adoption, unless something in the motion states otherwise.

 

[Sheila T]

Where might this be referred to in RONR

[Josh Martin]

9 hours ago, Sheila T said:

Where might this be referred to in RONR

The closest thing to a general rule on this subject is that RONR states that, when the chair announces the result of a vote, this includes a “Statement indicating the effect of the vote, or ordering its execution, if needed or appropriate.” This implies to me that it takes effect immediately. (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 48)

There is also an explicit statement in the case of amendments to the bylaws. “An amendment to the bylaws goes into effect immediately upon its adoption unless the motion to adopt specifies another time for its becoming effective, or the assembly has set such a time by a previously adopted motion.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 597) It seems to me that if even an amendment to the bylaws takes effect immediately, then this must also be the case for lower-level rules.

Edited August 22, 2018 at 01:30 PM by Josh Martin

[Richard Brown]

10 hours ago, Sheila T said:

The question is this: Is the amendment in effect immediately after the motion is passed or when the minutes in which the motion was made/passed approved (which is generally at the next monthly Board meeting)

I agree with my colleagues. Although there may not be an explicit statement in RONR that motions are effective immediately upon adoption, that effect is clear when you take the book as a whole. It is a misconception that motions do not take effect until the minutes are approved. Approving the minutes has nothing to do with when a motion becomes effective. The minutes are only a record of exactly what the motion was and when it was adopted. A motion becomes effective immediately upon adoption.

[Joshua Katz]

A logical puzzle: can it be that motions do not take effect immediately? If so, when does an unqualified motion to adjourn take effect? Upon, say, adjournment? That won't work.

What of a motion to set the time to which to adjourn? When does the adjourned meeting get scheduled?

Or, how about amend? Suppose an amendment to the pending main motion is adopted, then the main motion is itself adopted immediately afterwards. Was it adopted as amended? If so, the amendment must have taken place immediately. But why should amendments behave differently from other motions? If, instead, motions take effect, say, when the minutes are approved (for some reason, people here get upset when I say "the minutes are adopted"), then weren't you voting on the unamended motion?

[Richard Brown]

14 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

for some reason, people here get upset when I say "the minutes are adopted

That is because RONR does not even once use the term "adopt" the minutes.  Not once in all  of its 800 or so pages.  It repeatedly and consistently refers to "Approval of the minutes".  The following excerpt from pages 364-465 is typical:

After any proposed corrections have been disposed of, and when there is no response to the chair's inquiry, "Are [page 355] there any corrections [or "further corrections"] to the minutes?" the chair says, "There being no corrections [or "no further corrections"] to the minutes, the minutes stand [or "are"] approved [or "approved as read," or "approved as corrected"]."  The minutes are thus approved without any formal vote, even if a motion for their approval has been made. The only proper way to object to the approval of the secretary's draft of the minutes is to offer a correction to it. It should be noted that a member's absence from the meeting for which minutes are being approved does not prevent the member from participating in their correction or approval.

I challenge you to cite a single instance in all of the 800 pages of RONR where it makes any kind of reference to "adopting" the minutes. 

[Joshua Katz]

2 minutes ago, Richard Brown said:

I challenge you to cite a single instance in all of the 800 pages of RONR where it makes any kind of reference to "adopting" the minutes. 

You know I'm traveling without my book! 😉

In any case, so what? There are plenty of phrases that make perfect sense yet are not used in RONR. 

And, if the minutes have been approved, or whatever, and you want to change them, what motion do you use?

[George Mervosh]

1 minute ago, Joshua Katz said:

And, if the minutes have been approved, or whatever, and you want to change them, what motion do you use?

The cognoscenti use the motion amend something previously approved.

[Richard Brown]

13 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

The cognoscenti use the motion amend something previously approved.

Yep.  Sounds like ASPA to me!

[Joshua Katz]

16 minutes ago, George Mervosh said:

The cognoscenti use the motion amend something previously approved.

Does this phrase appear in RONR?

[Richard Brown]

Heck, it  took me almost  two years to get two secretaries of an unnamed local parliamentary organization I belong to to quit typing in the minutes that "The minutes of the previous meeting were accepted".  Aaarrgghh!!! 

I ACCEPT the FedEx package when the carrier delivers it and I sign for it, but I don't APPROVE of the contents until I open it. And I never ADOPT it!!!!   (Unless maybe it's a puppy. . . . )  

Edited August 22, 2018 at 06:01 PM by Richard Brown
Added the puppy part!

[Joshua Katz]

8 minutes ago, Richard Brown said:

Heck, it  took me almost  two years to get two secretaries of an unnamed local parliamentary organization I belong to to quit typing in the minutes that "The minutes of the previous meeting were accepted".  Aaarrgghh!!! 

 

Well, they are accepted, like any report. Then they are approved (or adopted).

It is true that you do not adopt the contents of your package. So why do we adopt main motions, amendments, and orders for the previous question, among other things? Why do we amend things previously adopted, or rescind them? One begins to suspect the word can mean things other than "to take on as a child or pet."

[George Mervosh]

57 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

Does this phrase appear in RONR?

Maybe in the Deluxe Edition.  I'll check. 

[Sheila T]

Thank you all!

[Greg Goodwiller, PRP]

I've been wondering how you guys get up to the number of posts you have (in the thousands!). This little stream helps me understand. Geez.

[Guest Who's Coming to Dinner]

9 hours ago, Joshua Katz said:

Well, they are accepted, like any report.

Actually, reports are received. RONR quite clearly frowns on "accepting" reports unless the intention is complete endorsement.

11th ed., p. 508, l. 28–35

[Joshua Katz]

Well there goes Mr. Brown's analogy. 

[Richard Brown]

6 hours ago, Joshua Katz said:

Well there goes Mr. Brown's analogy. 

Not quite. When I accept the package from FedEx, I am accepting it on behalf of the society. And I am most certainly not adopting it on behalf of the society.

But, all of this digression is causing us to lose sight of the point that I tried to make several posts ago. You complained that your colleagues complain when you refer to minutes being adopted rather than approved. I responded that we do that because RONR is very clear, throughout its 800 pages, that minutes are approved, not adopted.

Since we are supposed to be answering questions based upon RONR, I suggest that when responding to questions about the treatment of the minutes when they are up for APPROVAL per the first item in the standard order of business (Reading and APPROVAL of minutes), that we use the terminology consistently used throughout RONR and speak in terms of approving the minutes, not adopting the minutes.

The heading of that first item in the standard order of business is "Reading and Approval of Minutes", not "Reading and Adoption of Minutes".

[Joshua Katz]

All true. Yet, if you encountered a question on an NAP exam asking for a synonym for accept, I don't think you'd have any problem answering "adopt."

[Richard Brown]

16 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

All true. Yet, if you encountered a question on an NAP exam asking for a synonym for accept, I don't think you'd have any problem answering "adopt."

Well, all of the NAP RP exam test questions I have seen on "approving" the minutes use variations of "approving" the minutes.  Not once did any of the questions or answers use the terms "accept" or "adopt" in reference to approving the minutes.

btw, I just did a quick check of some other parliamentary authorities that I had within arm's reach.  The AIP's The Standard Code of Parliamentary Procedure, Canon's Rules of Order, and Keesey's Modern Parliamentary Procedure ALL refer to APPROVING the minutes, not once to adopting the  minutes.

[Joshua Katz]

Well, you obviously didn't check Josh's Rules of Order.