Several questions on censure.

[Benjamin Geiger]

• Who can an organization censure? Can we censure someone who isn't technically a member of our organization? Can we censure someone who is required to be a member of our organization by law or bylaws? Specifically, can we censure someone who holds state-level elected office?
• What is the effect of a motion to censure? Is it simply "we disapprove of what this person has done" or is there more?
• Does a motion to censure in an ordinary society differ from one in a legislative body?
• As a subordinate entity (a county-level chapter of a state-level political organization), do we need our parent organization's permission to censure someone?

I apologize for bringing the subject back up, but when I attempted to bring up a motion to censure (the one I asked about here), another member continually claimed that it was improper for several reasons, and I'd like to have an answer to their objections available before attempting it again.

Edited May 20, 2019 at 10:07 PM by Benjamin Geiger
Fixed a broken link.

[J. J.]

Who can an organization censure? Can we censure someone who isn't technically a member of our organization? Can we censure someone who is required to be a member of our organization by law or bylaws? Specifically, can we censure someone who holds state-level elected office?

Anyone, yes, yes, yes

What is the effect of a motion to censure? Is it simply "we disapprove of what this person has done" or is there more?

It expresses an opinion, nothing more.

Does a motion to censure in an ordinary society differ from one in a legislative body?

It can.  The particular legislature can have rules that make censure something beyond the expression of an opinion. 

As a subordinate entity (a county-level chapter of a state-level political organization), do we need our parent organization's permission to censure someone?

No, unless the rules of either require it.

 

 

[Guest Zev]

33 minutes ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

I apologize for bringing the subject back up, but when I attempted to bring up a motion to censure (the one I asked about here),...

Last things first. Be aware that the link was mangled but nevertheless I found it by search. Apology noted.

34 minutes ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

...another member continually claimed that it was improper for several reasons,...

I saw three replies, two of which agreed that you may perform this act and one reply that suggested new wording without further comment.

First bullet item: (1) Anyone; (2) Yes; (3) Again, the target of the censure is not required to be a member of your society; (4) Again, anyone.

Second bullet item: (1) "We do not like what this dude did." (2) If the motion specifies anything else then that is what its effect will be if adopted.

Third bullet item: (1) Maybe. On occasion legislative bodies stipulate that members that are censured may not be recognized by the chairman for the remainder of the day's session. Perhaps some others stipulate harsher penalties. The target's relationship to the society will determine how far the society could go in disciplinary measures.

Fourth bullet item: (1) Maybe. As a member of a superior body perhaps I would want to keep lower-level societies in check and prevent them from disturbing our relationship with private individuals or organizations we interact with. A lower-level society censuring a president of a foreign county may not have the same effect as censuring an important Hollywood donor. I would definitely read my superior body's rules to check if it says anything about this subject and I would probably be well-advised to contact the superior body and ask if they have any objections to our proposed motion. Some caution is advised, after all you do not want to raise the ire of the superior body.

 

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

Who can an organization censure? Can we censure someone who isn't technically a member of our organization? Can we censure someone who is required to be a member of our organization by law or bylaws? Specifically, can we censure someone who holds state-level elected office?

Anyone for the first question, and yes to all of the other questions. A censure is simply an expression of the organization’s opinion. There is no parliamentary reason why the organization cannot express an opinion about members or non-members, whether or not those persons hold state-level elected office.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

What is the effect of a motion to censure? Is it simply "we disapprove of what this person has done" or is there more?

As you say, it is simply “we disapprove of what this person has done.”

1 hour ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

Does a motion to censure in an ordinary society differ from one in a legislative body?

Generally, I don’t think so, but I concur with JJ that the rules of a particular legislative assembly could provide otherwise.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

As a subordinate entity (a county-level chapter of a state-level political organization), do we need our parent organization's permission to censure someone?

No, unless the rules of your organization or the parent organization so provide.

1 hour ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

I apologize for bringing the subject back up, but when I attempted to bring up a motion to censure (the one I asked about here), another member continually claimed that it was improper for several reasons, and I'd like to have an answer to their objections available before attempting it again.

For what reasons did this person claim it was improper?

[Atul Kapur]

35 minutes ago, Guest Zev said:

Be aware that the link was mangled

Worked for me without problem

[Benjamin Geiger]

Just now, Atul Kapur said:

Worked for me without problem

I fixed the link.

12 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

For what reasons did this person claim it was improper?

Pretty much the ones in the question. The subject of the censure is an ex officio member of the organization by virtue of being an elected official in a district in our county who is registered with our party, but that wasn't entirely certain at the time (I checked the bylaws later). The objector claimed that he would be fine with a statement of disapproval but not a motion to censure, and wouldn't give me a straight answer when I asked what he thought the difference was; he gave some claim about how Congress can only censure its own members (false, I might add, and moot). And since we're a subordinate body, he claims that the parent needs to do the censuring (which, of course, my resolution encourages).

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

when I attempted to bring up a motion to censure (the one I asked about here), another member continually claimed that it was improper for several reasons, and I'd like to have an answer to their objections available before attempting it again.

If you are having trouble because of the use of the term "censure" then why not just use a synonym?

I wouldn't go with "Commissioner Wossname is a big meanie poopyhead", but why not just a motion to "condemn Commisioner Wossname for supporting HB123". Or "disapproves of Wossname's support of HB123". Or anything like that without using the term censure.

None of those terms requires the disciplinary procedures to be used. All you're doing with any of these motions is to express an opinion.

[Josh Martin]

16 minutes ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

I fixed the link.

Pretty much the ones in the question. The subject of the censure is an ex officio member of the organization by virtue of being an elected official in a district in our county who is registered with our party, but that wasn't entirely certain at the time (I checked the bylaws later). The objector claimed that he would be fine with a statement of disapproval but not a motion to censure, and wouldn't give me a straight answer when I asked what he thought the difference was; he gave some claim about how Congress can only censure its own members (false, I might add, and moot). And since we're a subordinate body, he claims that the parent needs to do the censuring (which, of course, my resolution encourages).

It is not correct that Congress can only censure its own members, and in any event what Congress can or cannot do is probably not a good guide to go by. (Congress can do a good many things that your society can’t.) As you say, it appears to be moot since the person is a member anyway. It is not required that the parent body do the censuring.

There is no parliamentary difference between a motion to censure and a statement of disapproval, but I can understand why some members may support one over the other (even aside from any misunderstandings of what censure means). “Censure” or “condemn” sound more forceful, in my opinion, than “disapprove,” which could be good or bad depending on one’s point of view.

[Gary Novosielski]

2 hours ago, Benjamin Geiger said:

I fixed the link.

Pretty much the ones in the question. The subject of the censure is an ex officio member of the organization by virtue of being an elected official in a district in our county who is registered with our party, but that wasn't entirely certain at the time (I checked the bylaws later). The objector claimed that he would be fine with a statement of disapproval but not a motion to censure, and wouldn't give me a straight answer when I asked what he thought the difference was; he gave some claim about how Congress can only censure its own members (false, I might add, and moot). And since we're a subordinate body, he claims that the parent needs to do the censuring (which, of course, my resolution encourages).

And unless I'm very much mistaken, you're not Congress either.     Congressional rules depart from RONR in numerous significant ways.