Motion to rescind

[EMP]

I’ll be as concise as possible. A motion to rescind was offered in May on a proposal. It was only told to the commissioners that the only way to pass the motion to rescind was two-thirds vote. They were never informed of the “or a majority of the entire body” provision. It failed to obtain a two-thirds if voting members in a 9-7-2. Here are my questions. 1. Can any action be taken since they were not advised of the majority of the body provision by the County Attorney? 2. Can another motion to rescind be made at this upcoming meeting? 3. Would it be more advantageous to offer a renewal motion of the motion to rescind previously defeated? Entire body consists of 21 members if all are present. Thanks in advance. 

Edited June 10, 2019 at 10:42 PM by EMP

[Richard Brown]

I have several questions and concerns about the situation you mentioned. Note, these responses are not in the order of your questions.

First, if this is a public body, state or local law might well dictate the vote required to rescind a previously adopted motion.

Second, if you have 21 members in the body, then nine members is not a majority and the motion to rescind would not have passed even using the vote requirement of a majority of the entire membership.

Third, since no one raised a point of order when the chair declared that the motion failed, it is too late to do anything about that now. a point of order of that nature must be raised at the time the chair declares the result of the vote. You snooze, you lose.

Fourth, the motion to rescind may indeed be renewed (made again) at a future meeting unless there is something in governing law that would prohibit it.

 

[Joshua Katz]

I agree with Mr. Brown, but I'm also concerned (as I often am) about getting parliamentary advice from (presumably) an attorney employee. 

Also, to expand on one of Mr. Brown's answers, there is no difference between moving again to rescind and making a "renewal motion of the motion to rescind." In either case, you're just moving to rescind again, which may be done at any future session.

Edited to add:

Oh, one more thing that is likely relevant. There is a third way to pass a motion to rescind - a majority vote with previous notice. Since you're planning this for a future meeting, you may find that giving notice is the best way to attempt to reach your goals.

Edited June 10, 2019 at 11:47 PM by Joshua Katz
Added one more thing

[Josh Martin]

1 hour ago, EMP said:

1. Can any action be taken since they were not advised of the majority of the body provision by the County Attorney?

Since the motion didn’t receive a majority vote of the entire body either, it seems clear that no action regarding the vote may be taken.

1 hour ago, EMP said:

2. Can another motion to rescind be made at this upcoming meeting?

Yes.

1 hour ago, EMP said:

3. Would it be more advantageous to offer a renewal motion of the motion to rescind previously defeated?

No, it would be equally advantageous. Making a motion anew and renewing a motion are the same thing.

Edited June 11, 2019 at 12:10 AM by Josh Martin

[EMP]

Thank you all for the responses. To answer a point made by Mr. Brown, the governing body is managed by RR and there are no overriding laws to the governing of the meeting. A follow up to the use of a motion to rescind as I think that would be easier to follow for the body.  The recent motion to rescind was last month in May, is there anything concrete that would cause another motion to rescind so close to the last to be declared out of order? I know it would have to be made after all other business has concluded, but the main concern is an out of order petition be made and sustained. I don’t think the opportunity to get it announced is available at this point. I believe the majority of the body provision can be achieved. Thank you again 

[jstackpo]

4 minutes ago, EMP said:

I don’t think the opportunity to get it announced is available at this point.

Go check your bylaws to see what IS available.  The call to the meeting is a mechanism that can be used to give a notice (page 4, line 25ff).  Has that call happened yet?

[Guest Zev]

46 minutes ago, EMP said:

I know it would have to be made after all other business has concluded,...

I do not see this as necessarily a true statement. The motion you are trying to rescind falls into a certain category. If during the meeting that particular category is brought up, even though the specific motion you are trying to rescind is not directly involved, then that would be the time to move to rescind. But I do not see anything wrong with waiting until New Business.

49 minutes ago, EMP said:

...but the main concern is an out of order petition be made and sustained.

I'm not sure why I need to be worried about this. Why do you say this? If someone tries to derail the motion to Rescind then be ready to Appeal the ruling. A majority vote is all that is needed to reverse the ruling of the chair, if the ruling goes against you.

And please do not forget to answer the question by Dr. Stackpole.

[EMP]

58 minutes ago, jstackpo said:

Go check your bylaws to see what IS available.  The call to the meeting is a mechanism that can be used to give a notice (page 4, line 25ff).  Has that call happened yet?

Sorry I am not familiar enough with whether or not the call to the meeting has been used. The meeting is set by the county mayor and they don’t publish an agenda until the day of the meeting. 

[Guest Zev]

Now I understand why the OP said:

3 hours ago, EMP said:

It was only told to the commissioners that the only way to pass the motion to rescind was two-thirds vote.

There is zero days of previous notice, so a majority vote to rescind something can never be achieved. These dudes are really creative. I need to remember this trick. However, a majority of all the commissioners can still be achieved.

[EMP]

5 minutes ago, Guest Zev said:

Now I understand why the OP said:

There is zero days of previous notice, so a majority vote to rescind something can never be achieved. These dudes are really creative. I need to remember this trick. However, a majority of all the commissioners can still be achieved.

There are 11 votes to rescind for sure. It’s just a matter of explaining it, so the Commissioners can understand the two avenues to pass. Between the motion that we are trying to rescind’s original vote, and the vote to rescind last month approximately 12 different people voted against the original proposal. We can get it rescinded, if we can get the motion made. 

[Richard Brown]

EMP, you can also give previous notice of the motion to rescind verbally at a meeting if you really need to lower the threshold  to  a regular majority vote.  You give the notice at the next meeting and then vote on the motion at the next meeting after that one.

Edited to add:

Note the following language from page 4 of RONR:

Under certain circumstances, whatever the vote required, there may be an additional requirement of previous notice, which means that notice of the proposal to be brought up—at least briefly describing its substance—must be announced at the preceding meeting or must be included in the "call" of the meeting at which it is to be considered (see also pp. 121–24).

And also this from page 121:

The term previous notice (or notice), as applied to necessary conditions for the adoption of certain motions, has a particular meaning in parliamentary law. A requirement of previous notice means that announcement that the motion will be introduced—indicating its exact content as described below—must be included in the call of the meeting (p. 4) at which the motion will be brought up, or, as a permissible alternative, if no more than a quarterly time interval (see pp. 89–90) will have elapsed since the preceding meeting, the announcement must be made at the preceding meeting. The call of a meeting is generally sent to all members a reasonable time in advance, which may be prescribed in the bylaws. In organizations that meet less often than at quarterly time intervals (see pp. 89–90), or that meet as a convention of delegates, the bylaws should require the secretary to issue a call.

Edited June 11, 2019 at 03:36 AM by Richard Brown
Added everything after "Edited to add""

[J. J.]

How many members does this board have?  It it is 21 or less, 11 is a majority of the entire membership.  That is sufficient to rescind under RONR (pp. 306-7). 

[Atul Kapur]

7 hours ago, Richard Brown said:

EMP, you can also give previous notice of the motion to rescind verbally at a meeting if you really need to lower the threshold  to  a regular majority vote.

EMP, you can do all this at the same meeting. That is,  you can move to Rescind the motion at the upcoming meeting. If you get either a 2/3 vote or a Majority of the entire membership, then it's rescinded. If neither if those occur -- for example, if the vote is 9-7-2 again -- then you can, at the same meeting, give notice that you will move to Rescind again at the next meeting. By giving notice, then the motion only requires a majority vote at that meeting.

[Gary Novosielski]

On 6/10/2019 at 6:41 PM, EMP said:

I’ll be as concise as possible. A motion to rescind was offered in May on a proposal. It was only told to the commissioners that the only way to pass the motion to rescind was two-thirds vote. They were never informed of the “or a majority of the entire body” provision. It failed to obtain a two-thirds if voting members in a 9-7-2. Here are my questions. 1. Can any action be taken since they were not advised of the majority of the body provision by the County Attorney? 2. Can another motion to rescind be made at this upcoming meeting? 3. Would it be more advantageous to offer a renewal motion of the motion to rescind previously defeated? Entire body consists of 21 members if all are present. Thanks in advance. 

3. The "entire body" consists of 21 members even if some are absent.  So for that "majority of the entire membership" threshold, it would take 11 votes to pass, regardless of how many are present.

2. It can be made again at the next meeting.  If you have time to give previous notice that it will be moved, the threshold is lowered to a majority vote (of those present and voting, not of the entire body).

1. No need to take any action, since it simply failed.  A 9-7 vote is neither two-thirds, nor a majority of the entire membership; it was a "simple" majority, but without previous notice that is insufficient.