Voting for 3 board positions with 7 candidates

[Mark Apodaca, PRP]

I am trying to figure out how three board positions are filled when there are 7 candidates.  Majority vote required.

Number of delegates                                   50 
Number of votes each delegate                   3 
Number of votes                                        150 
Number of board member-at-large         
positions available for election                   3 
Number of candidates                                 7 
Majority                                                        77 
        
Voting Results        
Candidate 1        78
Candidate 2        24
Candidate 3        20
Candidate 4        10
Candidate 5          8
Candidate 6          5
Candidate 7          3
Total votes        148

Candidate 1 is elected.  Since the rest of the candidates did not meet majority, the delegates will need to vote again for the remaining 6 and elect 2.  Is this correct?  Suppose Candidate 1 did not meet majority, does this mean all seven will need to be voted again by the delegates?

 

[J. J.]

1 hour ago, Mark Apodaca said:

I am trying to figure out how three board positions are filled when there are 7 candidates.  Majority vote required.

Number of delegates                                   50 
Number of votes each delegate                   3 
Number of votes                                        150 
Number of board member-at-large         
positions available for election                   3 
Number of candidates                                 7 
Majority                                                        77 
        
Voting Results        
Candidate 1        78
Candidate 2        24
Candidate 3        20
Candidate 4        10
Candidate 5          8
Candidate 6          5
Candidate 7          3
Total votes        148

Candidate 1 is elected.  Since the rest of the candidates did not meet majority, the delegates will need to vote again for the remaining 6 and elect 2.  Is this correct?  Suppose Candidate 1 did not meet majority, does this mean all seven will need to be voted again by the delegates?

 

There were a total of 50 voters; how did Candidate 1 get 78 votes?

[Joshua Katz]

1 hour ago, Mark Apodaca said:

Is this correct?

No. I'm not sure how the results were obtained, but mistakes were made, at least if you are following the procedure in RONR. If everyone votes, a majority is 26 votes, not 77. (The number of delegates is not important, what matters is how many vote, so I'm assuming the two are identical.) It looks like you are using some other voting system, though, such as cumulative voting. Can you clarify?

[Guest Zev]

5 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

Candidate 1 is elected.

Curiosity question: What were the instructions the presiding officer gave to the voters before they voted? Were they instructed to vote for three different candidates from the list of seven or were they instructed to vote three times for any combination of candidate or candidates?

[Atul Kapur]

Even if they are using cumulative voting, the number needed to elect is 26 (majority of the 50 delegates who voted). If more than 3 candidates receive a majority vote, those with the largest number of votes are declared elected.

6 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

Since the rest of the candidates did not meet majority, the delegates will need to vote again for the remaining 6 and elect 2.  Is this correct?  Suppose Candidate 1 did not meet majority, does this mean all seven will need to be voted again by the delegates?

Yes and yes.

By the way, not that it's important in this case, but a majority of 150 is 76, not 77.

[Chris Harrison]

7 hours ago, J. J. said:

There were a total of 50 voters; how did Candidate 1 get 78 votes?

The OP stated each delegate gets 3 votes so there were a total of 150 votes at play. 

[Mark Apodaca, PRP]

You are to vote for 3 candidates out of seven.  So, with 50 delegates, each voting for three candidates, this is a total of 150 votes.  Right, the majority is 76 (77 was a typo).  In this case, Candidate 1 received 78 so he/she met majority.  The rest did not and there will need to be another round of voting, voting for 2.

Mark

Edited July 23, 2019 at 12:22 PM by Mark Apodaca

[Mark Apodaca, PRP]

4 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

Curiosity question: What were the instructions the presiding officer gave to the voters before they voted? Were they instructed to vote for three different candidates from the list of seven or were they instructed to vote three times for any combination of candidate or candidates?

Each delegate would vote for 3 out of 7 candidates.

[Josh Martin]

10 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

I am trying to figure out how three board positions are filled when there are 7 candidates.  Majority vote required.

Number of delegates                                   50 
Number of votes each delegate                   3 
Number of votes                                        150 
Number of board member-at-large         
positions available for election                   3 
Number of candidates                                 7 
Majority                                                        77 
        
Voting Results        
Candidate 1        78
Candidate 2        24
Candidate 3        20
Candidate 4        10
Candidate 5          8
Candidate 6          5
Candidate 7          3
Total votes        148

Candidate 1 is elected.  Since the rest of the candidates did not meet majority, the delegates will need to vote again for the remaining 6 and elect 2.  Is this correct?  Suppose Candidate 1 did not meet majority, does this mean all seven will need to be voted again by the delegates?

In circumstances where multiple identical positions are elected, each member votes for a number of candidates equal to the number of positions available (in this case, three), however, each ballot is treated as a single vote for the purposes of obtaining a majority. Therefore, in the example provided, 50 votes were cast, and a majority is 26. This still means that Candidate A is the only candidate who received a majority, and that a second round of voting is required for the remaining positions. All candidates other than Candidate A would remain on the ballot.

Since there were only 50 delegates, however, and delegates were instructed to vote for three candidates (as they should be), the fact that Candidate A received 78 votes is cause for alarm, and I would suggest that the assembly direct that a recount be conducted, as it should not be possible for a candidate to receive more than 50 votes if there are 50 delegates present.

Edited July 23, 2019 at 01:27 PM by Josh Martin

[Dan Honemann]

8 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

In circumstances where multiple identical positions are elected, each member votes for a number of candidates equal to the number of positions available (in this case, three), however, each ballot is treated as a single vote for the purposes of obtaining a majority. Therefore, in the example provided, 50 votes were cast, and a majority is 26. This still means that Candidate A is the only candidate who received a majority, and that a second round of voting is required for the remaining positions. All candidates other than Candidate A would remain on the ballot.

Since there were only 50 delegates, however, and delegates were instructed to vote for three candidates (as they should be), the fact that Candidate A received 78 votes is cause for alarm, and I would suggest that the assembly direct that a recount be conducted, as it should not be possible for a candidate to receive more than 50 votes if there are 50 delegates present.

Maybe their bylaws provide for cumulative voting.

[Atul Kapur]

1 hour ago, Mark Apodaca said:

You are to vote for 3 candidates out of seven.  So, with 50 delegates, each voting for three candidates, this is a total of 150 votes.  Right, the majority is 76 (77 was a typo).

150 votes were cast (actually 148) by 50 voters. As Mr. Martin and I said earlier, you need a majority of the voters, even with cumulative voting.

[J. J.]

8 minutes ago, Atul Kapur said:

150 votes were cast (actually 148) by 50 voters. As Mr. Martin and I said earlier, you need a majority of the voters, even with cumulative voting.

Would be of the ballots cast, with at least one vote?  (I don't think it would make a difference in this case.)

Edited July 23, 2019 at 01:56 PM by J. J.

[Mark Apodaca, PRP]

1 hour ago, Josh Martin said:

In circumstances where multiple identical positions are elected, each member votes for a number of candidates equal to the number of positions available (in this case, three), however, each ballot is treated as a single vote for the purposes of obtaining a majority. Therefore, in the example provided, 50 votes were cast, and a majority is 26. This still means that Candidate A is the only candidate who received a majority, and that a second round of voting is required for the remaining positions. All candidates other than Candidate A would remain on the ballot.

Since there were only 50 delegates, however, and delegates were instructed to vote for three candidates (as they should be), the fact that Candidate A received 78 votes is cause for alarm, and I would suggest that the assembly direct that a recount be conducted, as it should not be possible for a candidate to receive more than 50 votes if there are 50 delegates present.

This can be confusing.  It will be a lot easier but time consuming if the delegates voted one at a time for each of the three membership positions.  I see your point about 78 votes where the maximum a candidate can receive is 50.  Three out of 7 candidates could receive 50 votes making the total 150, but none will receive majority which would be 76.  Am I correct?

[Weldon Merritt]

1 hour ago, Mark Apodaca said:

This can be confusing.  It will be a lot easier but time consuming if the delegates voted one at a time for each of the three membership positions.  I see your point about 78 votes where the maximum a candidate can receive is 50.  Three out of 7 candidates could receive 50 votes making the total 150, but none will receive majority which would be 76.  Am I correct?

 No. One ballot = one vote, regardless of whether the voter marks one, twe, or three names. So if there are 50 ballots, a majority would be 26. And any candidate who receives 26 or more votes is elected. If more than three receive 26 or more votes, then the three highest are elected.

This is the answer for non-cumulative voting. I'm not sure how cumulative voting would affect the answer.

[Josh Martin]

2 hours ago, Daniel H. Honemann said:

Maybe their bylaws provide for cumulative voting.

Maybe, but it doesn’t sound like it.

2 hours ago, J. J. said:

Would be of the ballots cast, with at least one vote?  (I don't think it would make a difference in this case.)

Yes, I agree with this clarification. Blank ballots or abstentions are not included in the total. I also agree, however, that it doesn’t seem to make a difference in this case, as it appears that no blank ballots were cast, based on the numbers provided.

1 hour ago, Mark Apodaca said:

This can be confusing.  It will be a lot easier but time consuming if the delegates voted one at a time for each of the three membership positions.  I see your point about 78 votes where the maximum a candidate can receive is 50.  Three out of 7 candidates could receive 50 votes making the total 150, but none will receive majority which would be 76.  Am I correct?

If there are 50 delegates (and assuming the bylaws do not authorize cumulative voting), the maximum number of votes any candidate could receive is 50. The total number of votes (assuming all delegates vote) would be 50 and a majority would be 26.

34 minutes ago, Weldon Merritt said:

 This is the answer for non-cumulative voting. I'm not sure how cumulative voting would affect the answer.

It would be mathematically possible for a candidate to receive more than 50 votes. The number of votes cast and the number needed for a majority would remain the same.

[Joshua Katz]

6 hours ago, Chris Harrison said:

The OP stated each delegate gets 3 votes so there were a total of 150 votes at play. 

Yes, but only 50 voters. Under the rules in RONR no voter can vote more than once for a candidate, making the maximum 50. Under other voting systems, of course (those which do not adhere to "one person one vote" a person could choose, e.g., to cast 3 votes for one candidate. This is often used in electing corporate boards and it allows minority SHs to capture one or more board positions.

[Joshua Katz]

3 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

This can be confusing.  It will be a lot easier but time consuming if the delegates voted one at a time for each of the three membership positions.

Easier, perhaps - but the real question is, which method best reflects the aggregate desires of the assembly? We can't do that perfectly, but I'd suggest that RONR's method gets closer.

[Mark Apodaca, PRP]

Thank you all.  This has become clearer to me.  Its noncumulative voting.

 

Mark

[Guest Zev]

My take is that the presiding officer instructed the voters to vote for three candidates but the voters ignored the instructions and voted as a cumulative ballot instead. If twenty-six voters cast their three votes for candidate 1 then that explains how candidate 1 received seventy-eight votes. Because the voters ignored the presiding officer's instructions, it is my opinion that the entire election is void and needs to be redone. Perhaps pre-printed ballots with clearly marked spaces for seat number 1, 2, and 3 would be helpful. Stand by for differing opinions. 

[Joshua Katz]

13 minutes ago, Guest Zev said:

Because the voters ignored the presiding officer's instructions, it is my opinion that the entire election is void and needs to be redone.

I'm not so sure, although I probably get to the same outcome. Ballots voting more than once for the same candidate would be, I think, illegal ballots; they should be disregarded except that they count for establishing majority. So probably no one was elected.

 

15 minutes ago, Guest Zev said:

Perhaps pre-printed ballots with clearly marked spaces for seat number 1, 2, and 3 would be helpful.

I don't think so. As I suggested earlier, I think you distort preferences if you create separate races. What if X receives support from a majority, but does not have a majority for any of these seats?

[Guest Zev]

27 minutes ago, Joshua Katz said:

What if X receives support from a majority, but does not have a majority for any of these seats?

Now that I think of it some more my example is pretty lousy. Perhaps it would be much better if all seven names where on the ballot with boxes where the voters marks his three preferences with the "X".

[Josh Martin]

2 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

My take is that the presiding officer instructed the voters to vote for three candidates but the voters ignored the instructions and voted as a cumulative ballot instead. If twenty-six voters cast their three votes for candidate 1 then that explains how candidate 1 received seventy-eight votes. Because the voters ignored the presiding officer's instructions, it is my opinion that the entire election is void and needs to be redone. Perhaps pre-printed ballots with clearly marked spaces for seat number 1, 2, and 3 would be helpful. Stand by for differing opinions. 

I’m getting the impression that the scenario in the original post was simply a hypothetical example and the OP didn’t think it through.

In the event that such a situation actually has occurred, or does occur in the future, my own view of it is that the assembly should direct a recount to be taken, and that the tellers should then count ballots with multiple votes for a single candidate as a single vote for that candidate.

Edited July 23, 2019 at 10:00 PM by Josh Martin

[Gary Novosielski]

19 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

Thank you all.  This has become clearer to me.  Its noncumulative voting.

 

Mark

Then it would appear that a recount and retabulation of the teller's report would be in order, reflecting the fact that 50 ballots were cast, and that 26 votes are required to elect.  It would be impossible for any candidate to receive more than 50 votes. If there are 50 ballots, a name can appear on, at most, all of them.

[J. J.]

21 hours ago, Mark Apodaca said:

Thank you all.  This has become clearer to me.  Its noncumulative voting.

 

Mark

Then either you have mistyped the number or the ballot is void.  At least 28 more ballots than voters were cast.