Voting Members: Empty Seats?

[Zachary Lotshaw]

I am in a Political Simulator Game and we simulate, among other things, the US House of Representatives. To make a long story short the House has 16 seats, however a member who was also the Speaker of the House resigned as both Speaker and member of the House of Representatives. Therefore we have begun the process of electing a new Speaker. 

My problem is since during the time this vote is being held we currently only have 15/16 seats filled with a member who has been duly elected and sworn in. The Rules for the House as we have written them includes the following statement on the election of a Speaker, "A Speaker candidate shall require a majority of voting members to be elected. If no candidate achieves a majority, the process shall be redone until there is a candidate that achieves a majority." Our rules also has following provision "A majority vote, or 2/3 vote when necessary, is determined with reference only to those Members voting "Yea" or "Nay." A vote “Present” will count toward attendance and quorum only." The Rules also provide that unless our Rules say otherwise RONR is authoritative. 

So my question is is the total number of "voting members" only those who are currently, in our case, duly elected and sworn in or is it encompassing of all "possible voting members" in our case the number would be 16 if it includes all possible voting members OR only 15 if only including those currently having been duly elected and sworn in. 

I would appreciate any advice or help on this matter as it appears that our vote results will end up split that 8 are voting for Person A 6 for Person B and 1 voting "Present". 8 is a Majority out of 15, but not 16, which is why we may have an issue in determining what exactly it means by "a majority of voting members".

I appreciate and thank any and all response on advice and recommendations on how to handle this issue.

Edited September 3, 2019 at 05:44 AM by Zachary Lotshaw

[Atul Kapur]

As the general rule goes, your organization will have to interpret its own rules.

In my opinion, the sections that you have quoted  make it clear that the answer to your question is 15.

Edited September 3, 2019 at 12:43 PM by Atul Kapur

[Rob Elsman]

I agree that the House has 15 "voting members". As you say, a candidate must currently garner eight votes under your rule, which seems to require a vote of the majority of the entire membership, not just a majority vote.

Were it ever to happen that no candidate received a vote of the majority of the entire membership, another round of voting would be necessary. This procedure would repeat until someone (perhaps, even a "dark knight") garnered the necessary votes.

 

[Josh Martin]

10 hours ago, Zachary Lotshaw said:

I am in a Political Simulator Game and we simulate, among other things, the US House of Representatives. To make a long story short the House has 16 seats, however a member who was also the Speaker of the House resigned as both Speaker and member of the House of Representatives. Therefore we have begun the process of electing a new Speaker. 

My problem is since during the time this vote is being held we currently only have 15/16 seats filled with a member who has been duly elected and sworn in. The Rules for the House as we have written them includes the following statement on the election of a Speaker, "A Speaker candidate shall require a majority of voting members to be elected. If no candidate achieves a majority, the process shall be redone until there is a candidate that achieves a majority." Our rules also has following provision "A majority vote, or 2/3 vote when necessary, is determined with reference only to those Members voting "Yea" or "Nay." A vote “Present” will count toward attendance and quorum only." The Rules also provide that unless our Rules say otherwise RONR is authoritative. 

So my question is is the total number of "voting members" only those who are currently, in our case, duly elected and sworn in or is it encompassing of all "possible voting members" in our case the number would be 16 if it includes all possible voting members OR only 15 if only including those currently having been duly elected and sworn in. 

I would appreciate any advice or help on this matter as it appears that our vote results will end up split that 8 are voting for Person A 6 for Person B and 1 voting "Present". 8 is a Majority out of 15, but not 16, which is why we may have an issue in determining what exactly it means by "a majority of voting members".

I appreciate and thank any and all response on advice and recommendations on how to handle this issue.

An empty seat is not included when determining a majority in RONR unless the rule refers to the “fixed membership,” or uses a fixed number, which this rule does not. To the best of my knowledge, empty seats are also not included when determining a majority under the rules of the actual US House of Representatives. Finally, while it is ultimately up to the assembly to determine its own rules, I cannot imagine any reasonable interpretation in which an empty chair is viewed as a “voting member.”

Since this is a political simulation, however, it seems to me the members in the minority should ignore the above advice and accuse those in the majority of undertaking some sort of anti-democratic coup, that they raise a Point of Order (followed by an Appeal) defeated upon party lines, and for bonus points, reverse roles when the majority and minority are reversed in the future.

Edited September 3, 2019 at 04:38 PM by Josh Martin

[J. J.]

8 hours ago, Zachary Lotshaw said:

I am in a Political Simulator Game and we simulate, among other things, the US House of Representatives. To make a long story short the House has 16 seats, however a member who was also the Speaker of the House resigned as both Speaker and member of the House of Representatives. Therefore we have begun the process of electing a new Speaker. 

My problem is since during the time this vote is being held we currently only have 15/16 seats filled with a member who has been duly elected and sworn in. The Rules for the House as we have written them includes the following statement on the election of a Speaker, "A Speaker candidate shall require a majority of voting members to be elected. If no candidate achieves a majority, the process shall be redone until there is a candidate that achieves a majority." Our rules also has following provision "A majority vote, or 2/3 vote when necessary, is determined with reference only to those Members voting "Yea" or "Nay." A vote “Present” will count toward attendance and quorum only." The Rules also provide that unless our Rules say otherwise RONR is authoritative. 

So my question is is the total number of "voting members" only those who are currently, in our case, duly elected and sworn in or is it encompassing of all "possible voting members" in our case the number would be 16 if it includes all possible voting members OR only 15 if only including those currently having been duly elected and sworn in. 

I would appreciate any advice or help on this matter as it appears that our vote results will end up split that 8 are voting for Person A 6 for Person B and 1 voting "Present". 8 is a Majority out of 15, but not 16, which is why we may have an issue in determining what exactly it means by "a majority of voting members".

I appreciate and thank any and all response on advice and recommendations on how to handle this issue.

I would note that, if your game uses the US Constitution, this rule would be unconstitutional. 

[Zachary Lotshaw]

1 hour ago, J. J. said:

I would note that, if your game uses the US Constitution, this rule would be unconstitutional. 

I know this forum isn't really the proper place to discuss the US Constitution, but I would appreciate it if you could provide further clarification of the specifics of how exactly the rules I cited here are unconstitutional, as yes we do use the US Constitution and the Amendments we have past thus far have no mention of the Speaker or other similar operations of the House. 

[Gary Novosielski]

10 hours ago, Zachary Lotshaw said:

I am in a Political Simulator Game and we simulate, among other things, the US House of Representatives. To make a long story short the House has 16 seats, however a member who was also the Speaker of the House resigned as both Speaker and member of the House of Representatives. Therefore we have begun the process of electing a new Speaker. 

My problem is since during the time this vote is being held we currently only have 15/16 seats filled with a member who has been duly elected and sworn in. The Rules for the House as we have written them includes the following statement on the election of a Speaker, "A Speaker candidate shall require a majority of voting members to be elected. If no candidate achieves a majority, the process shall be redone until there is a candidate that achieves a majority." Our rules also has following provision "A majority vote, or 2/3 vote when necessary, is determined with reference only to those Members voting "Yea" or "Nay." A vote “Present” will count toward attendance and quorum only." The Rules also provide that unless our Rules say otherwise RONR is authoritative. 

So my question is is the total number of "voting members" only those who are currently, in our case, duly elected and sworn in or is it encompassing of all "possible voting members" in our case the number would be 16 if it includes all possible voting members OR only 15 if only including those currently having been duly elected and sworn in. 

I would appreciate any advice or help on this matter as it appears that our vote results will end up split that 8 are voting for Person A 6 for Person B and 1 voting "Present". 8 is a Majority out of 15, but not 16, which is why we may have an issue in determining what exactly it means by "a majority of voting members".

I appreciate and thank any and all response on advice and recommendations on how to handle this issue.

I think it does include all "possible" voting members, but as it is not "possible" for a vacant seat to vote, my answer is also 15.

One of the rules of interpretation says that the specific overrides the general, so that while most votes require only a majority of those present and actually voting, the specific case of electing a speaker requires a majority of all members who can vote.

[Josh Martin]

47 minutes ago, Gary Novosielski said:

I think it does include all "possible" voting members, but as it is not "possible" for a vacant seat to vote, my answer is also 15.

One of the rules of interpretation says that the specific overrides the general, so that while most votes require only a majority of those present and actually voting, the specific case of electing a speaker requires a majority of all members who can vote.

I do think there is some ambiguity regarding whether “voting member” means a member who is currently voting or a member who has the  right to vote, but since 8 is a majority of 14 or 15, it makes no difference in the present case. I agree that “voting member” does not include a vacant seat.

[Guest Zev]

1 hour ago, Gary Novosielski said:

The Rules also provide that unless our Rules say otherwise RONR is authoritative. 

Perhaps the gentleman would be better off requesting a copy of Jefferson's Manual from the Clerk of the US House since they do not use Robert's.

[J. J.]

3 hours ago, Zachary Lotshaw said:

I know this forum isn't really the proper place to discuss the US Constitution, but I would appreciate it if you could provide further clarification of the specifics of how exactly the rules I cited here are unconstitutional, as yes we do use the US Constitution and the Amendments we have past thus far have no mention of the Speaker or other similar operations of the House. 

It has been sent to you. 

[Josh Martin]

4 hours ago, Guest Zev said:

Perhaps the gentleman would be better off requesting a copy of Jefferson's Manual from the Clerk of the US House since they do not use Robert's.

The simulated US House apparently has chosen to use RONR, but in the event that it chooses to use Jefferson’s Manual, the text of the latter is available online, and there is therefore no need to request a copy from the Clerk of the real US House.

For what it is worth, I don’t think changing the parliamentary authority would change my interpretation that an empty chair is not a voting member.

Edited September 3, 2019 at 10:01 PM by Josh Martin

[AFS1970]

I am kind of interested in this simulation game.

There is another factor which seems to effect the majority and that is that only Yays & Nays count. so regardless of if the number is 15 or 16, the majority will not be known until the votes are cast. as someone could vote present and change the required number. 

As for Jefferson's rules, I got my copy at Monticello a few years back, but I have seen it offered at various historical sites also.  

[Josh Martin]

On 9/8/2019 at 2:05 AM, AFS1970 said:

I am kind of interested in this simulation game.

There is another factor which seems to effect the majority and that is that only Yays & Nays count. so regardless of if the number is 15 or 16, the majority will not be known until the votes are cast. as someone could vote present and change the required number. 

As for Jefferson's rules, I got my copy at Monticello a few years back, but I have seen it offered at various historical sites also.  

Well, we are told that, in the ordinary case, “A majority vote, or 2/3 vote when necessary, is determined with reference only to those Members voting "Yea" or "Nay." A vote “Present” will count toward attendance and quorum only.”

In this particular case, however, the rule provides “A Speaker candidate shall require a majority of voting members to be elected. If no candidate achieves a majority, the process shall be redone until there is a candidate that achieves a majority.” It appears that the prevailing interpretation is that the phrase “majority of voting members” is distinguishable from “majority vote” and therefore the other rule is inapplicable, and that this phrase means a majority of all members with the right to vote. The only disagreement, apparently, is over whether empty seats are “voting members” for purposes of the rule.

In any event, as I noted previously, if Mr. Lotshaw’s prediction that “our vote results will end up split that 8 are voting for Person A 6 for Person B and 1 voting ‘Present’”is correct, the result is the same whether “voting members” refers to members actually voting or members with the right to vote, since I do not think it is reasonable to view an empty chair as a voting member.

Edited September 9, 2019 at 01:43 PM by Josh Martin