Reports and minutes

[Rob Elsman]

I repeat myself, but Mr. Martin has given this a very thorough analysis. I suggest taking a few days off to read and internalize what he is saying.

[Calion]

On 2/10/2020 at 5:02 PM, Josh Martin said:

as I have already noted, there are no circumstances under which it is appropriate for an officer report to be made orally.

You have not. Could you support this?

[Josh Martin]

13 minutes ago, Calion said:

You have not. Could you support this?

As I said previously, “I would note that the rule regarding oral reports not applying to officers makes perfect sense. The situations in which an oral report can be given (which are discussed in more detail on pgs. 525-527) all involve cases in which the committee is reporting on a motion or subject which was referred to the committee, which is not applicable to officers.”

Edited February 12, 2020 at 03:17 AM by Josh Martin

[Calion]

32 minutes ago, Josh Martin said:

As I said previously, “I would note that the rule regarding oral reports not applying to officers makes perfect sense. The situations in which an oral report can be given (which are discussed in more detail on pgs. 525-527) all involve cases in which the committee is reporting on a motion or subject which was referred to the committee, which is not applicable to officers.”

Yes, you did. That is not at all equivalent to saying that "there are no circumstances under which it is appropriate for an officer report to be made orally," nor do I at all see that that is the case. Can you substantiate it?

[Calion]

On 2/10/2020 at 5:06 PM, Daniel H. Honemann said:

I can't imagine how one might conclude from it that "committee reports, like officer's reports, may routinely be given orally"

Officer's reports may routinely be given orally. Nothing indicates that committee reports are handled differently than officer reports. Therefore any reasonable person will conclude that committee reports may also routinely be given orally. 

[Calion]

On 2/10/2020 at 5:43 PM, Weldon Merritt said:

I don't agree that "if one follows the plain meaning of the instructions therein, one will be behaving wrongly according to RONR." The text seems pretty clear to me, and apparently to everyone else who has repsonded to this thread. 

The text is indeed quite clear: Both officer and committee reports may be given orally, and neither are ever entered into the minutes. 

I'm astonished that there is debate about this. Give In Brief to anyone literate who is not familiar with RONR pp. 531/525–7, have them read any part of it or the entire thing, and then ask whether committee reports have to be in writing in nearly all cases, and they will of course say "no," unless they suspect a trick question. Certainly they will have no basis for believing that officer reports are handled differently from committee reports in this regard. 

Let me quote the relevant passages for clarity:

"When assigned the floor, the [committee] chairman or other reporting member either gives the report orally or, if it is written, reads it or gives it to the secretary to be read."

"The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees, except as necessary to cover motions arising out of them."

If you give these two passages, or any superset of them, to anyone not already knowing the correct answer, and they conclude that committee (but not officer) reports must be entered in full into the minutes if they are not in writing—or, for that matter, that committee reports (but not officer reports) must almost always be in writing—, I'll eat my hat. 

Edited February 12, 2020 at 05:25 AM by Calion

[Josh Martin]

50 minutes ago, Calion said:

Yes, you did. That is not at all equivalent to saying that "there are no circumstances under which it is appropriate for an officer report to be made orally," nor do I at all see that that is the case. Can you substantiate it?

“As stated on page 511, committee reports should be submitted in writing, with the following permissible exceptions that apply to very brief reports in a small assembly, provided that the secretary records the complete substance of the report in the minutes as it is given orally:” (RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 525-526)

As you state yourself, “Nothing indicates that committee reports are handled differently than officer reports.” Therefore, like committee reports, officer reports are submitted in writing. All of the “permissible exceptions” involve cases which are not applicable to officer reports.

“All committee reports should be submitted in writing, except as noted (for particular types of brief reports in a small assembly) on pages 525–27. In the case of such exceptions, a report can be given orally only if it is brief enough that the secretary can record its complete substance in the minutes on hearing it given—which he must do if no written copy is submitted for file.” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 511)

This rule is even more clear. It clearly states that oral reports are given “in the case of such exceptions,” and even then, only if it is brief enough for the Secretary to record its complete substance upon hearing it.

46 minutes ago, Calion said:

Officer's reports may routinely be given orally.

Please quote the rule supporting this position.

46 minutes ago, Calion said:

Nothing indicates that committee reports are handled differently than officer reports. Therefore any reasonable person will conclude that committee reports may also routinely be given orally. 

Please explain how it is possible to “routinely” give oral committee reports in light of the rules above, as well as the rule that “Except as noted in this paragraph, a report of a board or committee can contain only what has been agreed to by a majority vote at a regular or properly called meeting of which every member has been notified (or at an adjournment of one of these meetings, pp. 93–94)—where a quorum of the board or committee was present. A presentation of facts or recommendations made merely upon separate consultation with every member of a board must be described thus to the parent assembly, and not as an official report of the board (see also pp. 486–87). In the case of a committee, however, if it is impractical to bring its members together for a meeting, the report of the committee can contain what has been agreed to by every one of its members. (See also Electronic Meetings, pp. 97–99.)” (RONR, 11th ed., pg. 503)

Unless the reporting member has a remarkable memory, how is it possible to comply with this rule for an oral report, except perhaps for very brief reports?

34 minutes ago, Calion said:

The text is indeed quite clear: Both officer and committee reports may be given orally, and neither are ever entered into the minutes. 

I am willing to concede that the text in RONR In Brief needs to be clarified. In particular, I agree that the text that “the [committee] chairman or other reporting member either gives the report orally or, if it is written, reads it or gives it to the secretary to be read." is problematic, as it seems to suggest that these are equally valid options, while RONR makes it quite clear that they are not.

As noted above, I don’t see as big a problem with the latter statement. This statement is correct 99% of the time, and it is not practical to restate every exception from RONR in RONR In Brief, or else the latter would not be very brief, but I suppose if one wishes to be precise it could be reworded slightly.

I might suggest that these sections of text be reworded to something like the following:

“the [committee] chairman or other reporting member reads the written report or gives it to the secretary to be read. (In rare circumstances, reports may be made orally instead of in writing. See RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 525-527 for more details.)”

“The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees, except as necessary to cover motions arising out of them, and also in certain rare exceptions. (See RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 470-471 for more details.)”

Edited February 12, 2020 at 04:41 AM by Josh Martin

[Calion]

16 hours ago, Josh Martin said:

As you state yourself, “Nothing indicates that committee reports are handled differently than officer reports.” Therefore, like committee reports, officer reports are submitted in writing. All of the “permissible exceptions” involve cases which are not applicable to officer reports.

No. You’ve got it exactly backwards. There’s nothing in In Brief which indicates that committee reports are handled differently than officer reports. That’s precisely the problem I’m complaining about. RONR itself, on the other hand, makes clear that they are indeed treated differently, by specifying that almost all committee reports must be submitted in writing. Since it says nothing of the sort about officer reports, they of course may be given orally.

[Dan Honemann]

8 minutes ago, Calion said:

No. You’ve got it exactly backwards. There’s nothing in In Brief which indicates that committee reports are handled differently than officer reports. That’s precisely the problem I’m complaining about. RONR itself, on the other hand, makes clear that they are indeed treated differently, by specifying that almost all committee reports must be submitted in writing. Since it says nothing of the sort about officer reports, they of course may be given orally.

I'll note again that RONR does say, on pages 476-77, that reports of officers "should generally conform to the rules as to form ... that govern committee reports", which, by my standards, means that officers' reports should be in writing.

[Shmuel Gerber]

On 2/11/2020 at 11:39 PM, Josh Martin said:

“The minutes do not include the contents of the reports of officers or committees, except as necessary to cover motions arising out of them, and also in certain rare exceptions. (See RONR, 11th ed., pgs. 470-471 for more details.)”

But aren't these exceptions nothing other than "as may be necessary to cover motions arising out of" the report?